darkSpyro

I've noticed a lot of Skylanders that used to be really good are terrible now on the PS3 as a result of the jump being added. Fright Rider is no longer able to use his Joust 360 spin attack as efficient as he used to. Is there already a topic for this as well?

Yep, there's a thread out there. I believe Vicarious made "adjustments" to make the game more "challenging". They've in my mind made the jumping a bit frustrating in parts as well. I hope TFB lays the smack down on some of these design decisions. I'm all for making it more challenging, but dorking around with characters we are very familiar with wasn't a good way of going about it.

Tree rex's big hit on the ground does almost nothing...!

A lot of the melee guys are much slower. Chop Chop and Wham Shell are good examples.

However some characters are better like

And Whirlwind.

They tried to balance out the characters and now everyone calls it unfair.

Quote: WickedRogue

They tried to balance out the characters and now everyone calls it unfair.

Well, no one's saying unfair---sounds like "different".

If a character's melee's attacks are more neutral. then how does that make the character balanced? Sounds like they are trying to minimize those types of attacks. I'd love to hear the rational behind this "balanced" argument.

Btw, I agree some characters were very broken. I just don't know which ones they "broke" to fix.

Okay,Okay......this is skylanders everyone not world of warcraft! Just enjoy the game and have fun with it!!!

Quote: Spinall4

Okay,Okay......this is skylanders everyone not world of warcraft! Just enjoy the game and have fun with it!!!

It sounds like they're trying, but the characters got nerfed.

If I was cynical I'd suggest that some characters were nerfed to make the new ones more effective.

It's hard to enjoy your old favorites when they've been messed up / broken. The new characters seem well-designed and polished, but most the old ones' mechanics seem messed up to me. I think a lot of things were lost in translation between Toys For Bob and Vicarious Visions. Most of these returning character versions VV made just aren't right, imo.

Edit: I'll also add that I don't think the returning characters that are messed up were nerfed or toned down intentionally. I think most the changes were simply oversights / not caring enough to get them perfect / rushed before they were ready.

Yeah I noticed fright rider is awful in the new game, and tree rex is still good but his melee attacks don't have the AoE they use to have.

I'm glad that they at least fixed since he had some of the worst issues in the older games. Now he can hit enemies more than once with his skull charge and his Grave Circumstances quest isn't glitched anymore. I only hate how his skull charge doesn't last as long as it used to.

Quote: Tel Prydain

If I was cynical I'd suggest that some characters were nerfed to make the new ones more effective.

Actually that thought has crossed my mind. There is evidence to support this trend now.

If you can't find some characters that are effective and fit your preferred style of play, then you're simply being way overly picky.

There are literally hundreds of Skylanders to choose from now. If your "old favorite" isn't as deadly as s/he used to be, then try out some new ones. Or, just go back and play Giants.

Some of the characters are stronger, some are faster; Some of the characters don't hit as hard, or move slower. While it's a change, and we all know how well gamers like change (they don't in case you didn't know), this shows a dedication to the overall balance of the game from the developers. This is a good thing.

Quote: plebeianprint

Some of the characters are stronger, some are faster; Some of the characters don't hit as hard, or move slower. While it's a change, and we all know how well gamers like change (they don't in case you didn't know), this shows a dedication to the overall balance of the game from the developers. This is a good thing.

This is mostly my point. People say they want change, but when they actually do get it they don't really want it.

Agreed, plebianprint and WickedRogue.

I can accept that changes were needed, even if I don't agree with them all. I personally have always thought the game was very out of balance between the characters, but I accepted the good with the bad and still do. Overall, I think the series has improved and come a long way.

Quote: plebeianprint

Some of the characters are stronger, some are faster; Some of the characters don't hit as hard, or move slower. While it's a change, and we all know how well gamers like change (they don't in case you didn't know), this shows a dedication to the overall balance of the game from the developers. This is a good thing.

This is NOT a good thing.A good thing is balancing out the aspects of a character that need balancing - say,make Ignitor deal less damage or have a slower Soul of the Flame.Now nerfing the speed of just about any old skylander is not only silly,but also uneeded and it's a dumb attempt to force people to play new characters instead of their favorites. That not only breaks the immersion of usin your team of choice,it's just another part of the game where you get no respect for having played the oh-so-inferior-and-with-ugly-graphics previous games. It's like rising the prices of several flavors of cake just so you can sell a newer one more,it's idiotic and will get those that liked the old flavors unpleased.

^ Disagree with Bifrost, entirely.

I have to draw upon an earlier post in this thread ... Skylanders is NOT World of Warcraft or any other MMORPG.
Different users have different opinions about which Skylanders characters previously were "over-powered" or not, depending on individual playstyles and preferences. There was and is no consensus about which characters warranted a "boost" and which needed "nerfing". You may feel that you "know", but in actuality, another avid Skylanders player could completely disagree with you and still be "right".

Bottom line, it's a matter of opinion. Bottom line #2: people resist change.

That's all.

Honestly, I've noticed no differences, I just play the game to have fun, not so I can go online and post about how terrible a few characters have become, because honestly, none of them terrible. Just ignore the differences. Have Fun.

Quote: BahamutBreaker

^ Disagree with Bifrost, entirely.

I have to draw upon an earlier post in this thread ... Skylanders is NOT World of Warcraft or any other MMORPG.
Different users have different opinions about which Skylanders characters previously were "over-powered" or not, depending on individual playstyles and preferences. There was and is no consensus about which characters warranted a "boost" and which needed "nerfing". You may feel that you "know", but in actuality, another avid Skylanders player could completely disagree with you and still be "right".

Bottom line, it's a matter of opinion. Bottom line #2: people resist change.

That's all.

Actually, I agree with Bifrost for that very reason. If these characters were MMORPG characters that effected others, then I could see why they would mess with the characters. However, It's not. It's a locally played game that only effects yourself. So why change it? Yes, it's all a matter of personal opinion, yet, if my choice of playing what 'you' would consider an over powered 'Lander doesn't effect 'you' in anyway, then I don't see a need to change it at all.

I would actually agree with you if it WAS World of Warcraft or any other MMORPG, as then it would effect every other player...but, it doesn't. So I'll have to agree with Bifrost.

There is no opinion on a character being overpowered - this isn't an MMO,but there are stats,there are damage caps,there is attack speed; just look at tiers people already organized. And even with that, there's a difference between needed change and pushing older players away - Giants had the first. In there,characters that could blaze through levels and battles got a bit closer to those that are average,but not enough they outright suck;and some characters that were more trouble than worth were made useful and fun,just look at Chop Chop.
Now? Giants are slower than ever and more useless than ever. Old characters are slower to attack and move. Meanwhile,the new characters get all the benefits,are faster,are more useful. In Giants,having a new character was a plus,a few more minutes of fun than you were already having,and some advantages over the old ones that don't make those be any less good. In SF, it's a requirement if you want to enjoy the game after you're done with the story.It's a change that no one wanted and no one needed,and isn't going to sell more except to those that don't mind it.
Well,I mind it,and that was the icing on the cake for me not buying this game even when I had the opportunity. A game that isn't fun unless you follow the way it wants you to enjoy it or requires even more money than it already cost previously isn't a game that deserves the money,or at least my money.

If you unable to have fun playing Swap Force, then your definition of fun is extremely narrow. Simple as that.

Quote: BahamutBreaker

If you unable to have fun playing Swap Force, then your definition of fun is extremely narrow. Simple as that.

I think what upsets people the most is the fact that they put the time and effort into leveling and playing certain characters, only to have them nerfed in this game.

Imagine playing 'Skyrim' for 40 hours, and then you log in one day and your armor sucks because they just 'felt' like messing with it but, wait.....They are selling new armor that is really good!!?? Wow, I gotta buy that new just to get back to where I was before they nerfed my character? Not cool man...not cool.

Quote: Tel Prydain

If I was cynical I'd suggest that some characters were nerfed to make the new ones more effective.

*Whistles inconspicuously*

Ugh. That's the point. This isn't Skyrim.

Quote: BahamutBreaker

Ugh. That's the point. This isn't Skyrim.

My point is, this is a single player game. Nerfed characters effect no one but the people that loved those characters. There is no need to change them.

Skyrim is a single player game that effects no one but the person locally playing. If you can't see the viable correlation I can come up with plenty more?

It's really very possible that any perceived "nerfs" or changes in established characters' behavior was simply unintended or even accidental on the developers' part. That's hardly implausible considering that an entirely different development studio created Swap Force. I think some people are trying too hard to feel insulted by the perceived changes in character behavior compared to previous titles. Like I said before, if you preferred the character behavior in Giants, then go play that.

Quote: BahamutBreaker

It's really very possible that any perceived "nerfs" or changes in established characters' behavior was simply unintended or even accidental on the developers' part. That's hardly implausible considering that an entirely different development studio created Swap Force. I think some people are trying too hard to feel insulted by the perceived changes in character behavior compared to previous titles. Like I said before, if you preferred the character behavior in Giants, then go play that.

Sounds like a 'if you don't like it get out' response. To each their own. I would have preferred they kept their speed/armor/damage from the first two games. However, yes, If we don't like we can always 'get out'. Ugh...

No, that wasn't my intent.
My intent is to say that it's impossible to please everyone.

Some people would have preferred that the game functionality stayed exactly like it was in previous Skylanders titles. Some people prefer the changes in Swap Force.

If your preference is for the mechanics of the older titles, then play those. In no way did I imply, "get out". You inferred that on your own.

Yes,let everyone who can't stand slower Skylanders go play SSA and Giants.Then SF can do even worse than it's doing and actively hurt the franchise since Activision can't possibly have a title that doesn't sell well.But the point is,if the devs bring that to themselves,that's a problem.Swap Force is bad too far into the series,at a time they could improve everything instead of spending their time prettying up the next-gen graphics,making the newer characters obviously better despite the bad character design,and forgetting half of the story from the previous games.

Well, I'm not going back to Giants because I'm used to the new control scheme now (which was changed more drastically than it needed to be and no options were provided), and because I like the new characters, especially Roller Brawl who is my new favorite by far. It's simply frustrating / annoying when one of your old favorites such as Gill Grunt has had your style of play with him completely broken due to a fundamental change in gameplay mechanics. I like to blast the hose on him turning the jetpack on and off intermittently to stop the strafe and reposition his jetpack-strafing angle. You can't start the jetpack anymore while the hose is being used. It's totally different from how it used to be. I don't think the change was intentional. I think it was an oversight / lack of care. I heard Toys For Bob is back for the next game so hopefully they fix the things Vicarious Visions screwed up on a lot of the returning characters.

I don't mean to sound TOO negative. I do love the game, the new characters, and several of my old favorites aren't changed so much that they are no longer enjoyable to me. I do wish they had successfully transferred over all of the returning characters' gameplay mechanics, but they didn't. Simply an observation and a gripe.

And yet, I love me the still forgotten characters: Voodood, Boomer, Sunburn, Dinorang....I'd say Ghost Roaster too, but haven't been lucky enough to score him yet.

VooDood is a BIT more powerful in Swap in my opinion...but 2 editions and no wow pow....sort of leaves them behind the curve.

Quote: Bifrost

Yes,let everyone who can't stand slower Skylanders go play SSA and Giants.Then SF can do even worse than it's doing and actively hurt the franchise since Activision can't possibly have a title that doesn't sell well.But the point is,if the devs bring that to themselves,that's a problem.Swap Force is bad too far into the series,at a time they could improve everything instead of spending their time prettying up the next-gen graphics,making the newer characters obviously better despite the bad character design,and forgetting half of the story from the previous games.

If they had invested their time in character mechanics, rather than improved graphics, then you would have complained about the lack of graphics upgrades. If not you, then someone else would have.

It's a catch-22 for developers of any sequel to a successful game. It's nothing new. They simply have to apply their resources and talents in the way that works best for them, although consideration for the player-base's can be taken into consideration. In this case, Vicarious Visions absolutely DID listen to the wishes and feedback from gamers when developing Swap Force. But you went and found something else to complain about, most likely because you like to complain about stuff.

This series has more than just "single player' It has PVP, it has always had PVP. The reasons for some of the fixes were also to make PVP more balanced. For example everyone makes a Tier List of who is the best for PVP, but yet now then complain when they try to balance it so it seems fair for everyone? You can't have it both ways. That just makes it more difficult for a game developer to understand what you really want.

Quote: BahamutBreaker

If they had invested their time in character mechanics, rather than improved graphics, then you would have complained about the lack of graphics upgrades. If not you, then someone else would have.

It's a catch-22 for developers of any sequel to a successful game. It's nothing new. They simply have to apply their resources and talents in the way that works best for them, although consideration for the player-base's can be taken into consideration. In this case, Vicarious Visions absolutely DID listen to the wishes and feedback from gamers when developing Swap Force. But you went and found something else to complain about, most likely because you like to complain about stuff.

Graphics don't make the game,I'd be fine if they kept the old ones,not to mention we had it for 2 games already. And the way they heard the fandom this time was to pander to it by adding jump and other types of bells and whistles,otherwise stuff like skipping dialogue and the old characters wouldn't have been ignored.
And I like to complain? At the beginning of the year,I was already making plans to not buy anything on the months before the release of SF because I was sure I'd love it. It was such a huge disappointment I just can't help but point out the mistakes,even if said disappointment already gives me a bit of a bias against the positive points - the things that made me dislike the game are still there for everyone to see.

Quote: samuraituretsky

Well, I'm not going back to Giants because I'm used to the new control scheme now (which was changed more drastically than it needed to be and no options were provided), and because I like the new characters, especially Roller Brawl who is my new favorite by far. It's simply frustrating / annoying when one of your old favorites such as Gill Grunt has had your style of play with him completely broken due to a fundamental change in gameplay mechanics. I like to blast the hose on him turning the jetpack on and off intermittently to stop the strafe and reposition his jetpack-strafing angle. You can't start the jetpack anymore while the hose is being used. It's totally different from how it used to be. I don't think the change was intentional. I think it was an oversight / lack of care. I heard Toys For Bob is back for the next game so hopefully they fix the things Vicarious Visions screwed up on a lot of the returning characters.

I don't mean to sound TOO negative. I do love the game, the new characters, and several of my old favorites aren't changed so much that they are no longer enjoyable to me. I do wish they had successfully transferred over many of the returning characters' gameplay mechanics, but they didn't. Simply an observation and a gripe.

Yeah, I'm wondering why they didn't provide a simple controller options menu. I found the change very disrupting, but like anything I'll get used to it. Some of the button combos now are difficult on PS3 where you have to press square and circle. Personally I would've swapped attack 3 (triangle I think) with attack 1 (square).

Quote: WickedRogue

This series has more than just "single player' It has PVP, it has always had PVP. The reasons for some of the fixes were also to make PVP more balanced. For example everyone makes a Tier List of who is the best for PVP, but yet now then complain when they try to balance it so it seems fair for everyone? You can't have it both ways. That just makes it more difficult for a game developer to understand what you really want.

Pretty sure these weren't balance changes. They feel more like oversights / things they forgot or didn't care enough / have the time to get right. The right mechanics for the returning characters that have been altered would have been the exact same mechanics from the first two games, imo. Balance can be tweaked in the numbers.

Everyone saying "use a new character" or "go play Giants": have you forgotten people payed for the toys they got? If they nerf the characters people bought in the past two games, and make them as weak compared to new ones as they did in SF, I think it's understandable that people would be upset. It's like technology, where you pay to buy a device, and then a year or two later there's a new, better version. Except that there's no real point to it here, because they've failed to "balance" old characters with new like they obviously were trying to, and made things that were already bad or didn't need to be nerfed worse. There wasn't any point to making characters that were already slow like Prism Break and Double Trouble even moreso.

Quote: Bifrost

This is NOT a good thing.A good thing is balancing out the aspects of a character that need balancing - say,make Ignitor deal less damage or have a slower Soul of the Flame.Now nerfing the speed of just about any old skylander is not only silly,but also uneeded and it's a dumb attempt to force people to play new characters instead of their favorites. That not only breaks the immersion of usin your team of choice,it's just another part of the game where you get no respect for having played the oh-so-inferior-and-with-ugly-graphics previous games. It's like rising the prices of several flavors of cake just so you can sell a newer one more,it's idiotic and will get those that liked the old flavors unpleased.

Quote: Bifrost

There is no opinion on a character being overpowered - this isn't an MMO,but there are stats,there are damage caps,there is attack speed; just look at tiers people already organized. And even with that, there's a difference between needed change and pushing older players away - Giants had the first. In there,characters that could blaze through levels and battles got a bit closer to those that are average,but not enough they outright suck;and some characters that were more trouble than worth were made useful and fun,just look at Chop Chop.
Now? Giants are slower than ever and more useless than ever. Old characters are slower to attack and move. Meanwhile,the new characters get all the benefits,are faster,are more useful. In Giants,having a new character was a plus,a few more minutes of fun than you were already having,and some advantages over the old ones that don't make those be any less good. In SF, it's a requirement if you want to enjoy the game after you're done with the story.It's a change that no one wanted and no one needed,and isn't going to sell more except to those that don't mind it.
Well,I mind it,and that was the icing on the cake for me not buying this game even when I had the opportunity. A game that isn't fun unless you follow the way it wants you to enjoy it or requires even more money than it already cost previously isn't a game that deserves the money,or at least my money.

Agreed.

Quote: WarHammer

I think what upsets people the most is the fact that they put the time and effort into leveling and playing certain characters, only to have them nerfed in this game.

Imagine playing 'Skyrim' for 40 hours, and then you log in one day and your armor sucks because they just 'felt' like messing with it but, wait.....They are selling new armor that is really good!!?? Wow, I gotta buy that new just to get back to where I was before they nerfed my character? Not cool man...not cool.

This, and what I wrote at the start of the post.

Quote: WickedRogue

The reasons for some of the fixes were also to make PVP more balanced.

As someone currently testing numerous Skylanders in PVP who has played it since SA. Most of the old ones now suck compared to the new ones. Look at Slam Bam, they just made a low tier path (Glacier Yeti) even more low tier by making his ice no longer keep the opponent in place, made his attacks average melee moves, basically made him an F-Tier character... That doesn't make PVP more "fair"... They also nerfed things that didn't need nerfing- for instance, Sprocket's building turrets, you can no longer be attacked and stop but have the turret build itself, you're a sitting duck while doing it. They changed many things for the worse, the things they changed for the better just bought the worse characters slightly closer to the level of new ones(but still didn't balance them properly), and they haven't fixed things that did warrant fixing like giving Pop Fizz something to do while he's stuck transforming or the aforementioned Glacier Yeti, a character who had big problems from the start. Ultimately, it seems a very large portion of the two top tiers will be composed of new characters, unlike Giants. Giants even had a decent number of S1 figures in A and S. The "rebalancing" (nerfing) in SF does not help even out PVP at all and has made many characters worse. I would say Chill and Warnado can be moved one or two tiers up, depending on how things around them go- that's it. I can't remember any others that I thought improved enough to move up at all. SF has a new standard of power, many old characters fall flat, and if anything PVP is where this is most noticeable and makes things the least fair.

It seems like the bulk of complaints about the changes to Skylanders' performance in Swap Force are related to character speed.

I admit I have not tried and tested every single character in the new game, but from what I have seen, isn't it safe to say that ALL characters move more slowly in Swap Force? People seem to be bugging about Prism Break, Slam Bam, Chop Chop, Voodood, Double Trouble, Bash, etc.

I agree that those characters move more slowly in Swap Force. But I also notice Stealth Elf and Flameslinger (just to name a couple) move more slowly in Swap Force, too.

If ALL characters got "nerfed" then it really isn't a nerf. It's just a different game with a different "feel". Right?

stealth elf's blade path got nerfed because the extra blades are now much shorter

@ Arc of Archives: I received your PM, and tried to reply kindly. However, you must have my profile on your "Blocked" list, so my reply got returned.

Apologies for my off-topic post; there was no other way to reach out to "Arc".

The character speed also makes them less fun, IMO. A lot were already slow and I don't understand how making them even slower in larger environments is better. This isn't just a question of power, but fun. For example, in my opinion, Stealth Elf still has about the same power level, but is less fun because her attacks feel "heavier" instead of "lighter" like you'd imagine a ninja'd attacks would. Besides, this character speed change is pretty much universally agreed as something that's worse in SF, and I see why- characters already kind of slogged by in the last games... There wasn't any point, no benefit, to making them go even more slowly. It's essentially ruined characters like Prism Break for me in this game. It also seems to me that enemies are about the same speed, if not faster, than before which definitely doesn't help to even things.

There are slow characters like Slobber Tooth and Bumble Blast in SF, sure, but I find those are much "fairer" with how they were balanced. I think it was stupid with Slobber Tooth's case, but with Bumble Blast? He's based around hitting enemies from far away. Heck, he even has a move that can slow them down. In that case, it's not as big an issue as someone like Pop Fizz... Someone remind me why he was made "slow" again? Fire Kraken is kind of slow too but can keep knocking back enemies with his secondary and third attacks. Wash Buckler is kind of slow but can escape with Octolash and trap enemies in bubbles. Chop Chop can... I dunno, I haven't played him yet in SF.

I haven't played many new characters so I can't give further input, but I'm finding everyone except Slobber Tooth more entertaining to use than old characters in SF. It's made me much less interested in using the older characters in SF... Which is BAD because you're supposed to be able to choose who you want to use. And they should balance the characters out more to make that something you WANT to do, give characters situations that they can really shine in.

I hate to use the same characters as examples over and over, but, for instance... why use Sprocket when I can use the stronger and, more importantly, more entertaining Grilla Drilla? She's got the tank over Grilla Drilla, but... Otherwise, Grilla is more durable, has a similar playstyle, and his attacks are more balanced for use in SF. I love Sprocket but she's too slow and her attacks aren't really amazing in SF, she suffered some similar issues in Giants but was stronger by that game's standards to balance it out. I can use her if I want a challenging character, but I pick Nightmare mode so I can be challenged, not use characters that have handicaps to be challenged... That's what the difficulty mode is supposed to be resolving...

Edit: Oops! Sorry. I blocked you after a topic got out of hand... I'll send a PM about it if you'd like me to though I won't post about it public, because, well you know. I unblocked you. I'll try to resolve that issue with you, I apologise for that oversight on my part.

Plus stone fist traps no longer stay in the ground, they pop up right away.

^ Wow, that sounds horrible. I was actually hoping that they would improve Stonetraps more(and make that upgrade where killed enemies become Traps stay in the ground rather than pop up).

Anyway I tried Gill Grunt today and despite the nerfs he got I actually find myself enjoying him more. VV did a much better job making all his attacks worthwhile... Boiling Water Hose is his most damaging attack and knocks back but requires closer range than his other moves, while harpoons do less damage when spammed but have the advantage of range.
Anchor Cannon isn't that good outside of the S2 though, clunky and difficult to aim as always, and it does only 100 damage. You know what sucks, though? If you have the anchor charged and then activate the Jetpack the anchor disappears and you need to charge it again. And there was no reason (glitches?) to make it so that you can't activate the Jetpack while using the hose... It was just a useful ability and wasn't broken or anything.

Good call, Arc.

Every Skylander has some minor advantages and some minor disadvantages.
If there were 20 characters, then we could rail on Vicarious Visions for not having every single detail of every Skylanders' attack mechanics flawless. But since there are 100+ Skylanders, I don't think that's a fair criticism.

If your "old favorite" Skylander isn't as effective as he/she/it used to be, find a new favorite. Variety is the spice of life.

Yeah its not fair to ram-rod them on 'balance'

It is fair to ram-rod them for nerfs, global 'speed' changes, and loss of Quest Bonuses - though that reek of 'Buy our new stuff'. Considering the level of effort to redo the models from the ground up - the time it would take to make things 'line-up' with how they were previously is sweetener in coffee.
- Unreall

Why don't people just ask them to bring back the Heroic Challenges?