darkSpyro

If Acti, or whoever is making these games, does things right, eventually, it should be an exact half and half between girls and boys.

Hooray! Thank you Will171717 and Rickorio! :)

And I'm a guy, I just think it should be fair.

Quote: azz01

I think since they are making 16 swappers they should have made 8 male and 8 female.The 8 males swap with each other and the same for the females.

Except we already have some types that have both already
Like fire and water

Wait...wut? Some elemental types that have both already? Which is true, but we still have no female fire element and there's generally only one female per element so far (at most, two). Or some Swaplanders that are female? Which is not true, because they've all been confirmed to be male.

A female fire would be great maybe like a flame mage

Look, the clear reasons for the lack of female Swaplanders have already been made pretty darn clear. Like it or not, Activision is out to make money, and the fracas that gender-swapping characters would create isn’t worth it.
You suggest a 8/8 split, which wouldn’t work for several reasons:
A ) You effectively half the number of ‘new’ characters
B ) You would need to figure out some locking mechanism to prevent cross-gender swaps, which would complicate the swapping process for young kids.
C ) For young kids, the rules about swapping, as well as the swapping itself, needs to be simple.

It’s also worth noting that in the target market for this game the audience is predominantly boys. You can argue that the imbalance is due to societal pressures or unfair gender norms, but Activision is concerned with appealing to the group that is most likely to buy the game.

I also want to point out that, as a franchise, Skylanders is extremely girl friendly. Stealth Elf, Chill, Cynder, Flashwing, Hex, Ninjini, Sonic Boom, Sprocket and Whirlwind (plus Polar, Jade and Scarlet) might still be a minority, but it’s still more female representation than most games offer – plus the female characters are strong, capable fighters, not damsels to possessed by patriarchal authority figures.

In addition to that, I’d suggest that the game actively avoids presenting strong male characters, but revels in presenting strong female characters. Yes, there are more ‘male’ characters in the game, but it’s hard to argue that a flaming bird or a blue ball of fuzz are representations of the stereotypical male id.
When you look at the humanoid males, there are very, very few. Flameslinger, Lightning Rod, Crusher and Fright Rider are the only ‘human’ males. While Hex, Sprocket, Ninjini, Chill and Stealth Elf all strongly showcase their human femininity.
This seems to be a continuing trend in Swapforce where Roller Brawl, Dark Stealth Elf and Star Strike seem to be providing girls with identifiable role models while leaving boys with a collection of golems, robots and beasts.

At the end of the day, this is a kids game… hardly the front line for gender equality. And more to the point, it’s a kids game that actively tries to be inclusive, which is a lot more than most games.
Rather than focusing on what they are doing wrong, why not praise them for what they are doing right and encourage them to continue to providing strong female role-models for our young women?


Side note: One reason I liked the ‘chatter’ of Spyro’s adventure over Swapforce was that it let the beasts be beasts without stating a specific gender identity. Sun Burn, for example, could be male or female depending on personal reading of the character.
I was displeased when I started up Giants and found my stoic team of fantasy creatures had transformed into a bunch of chatty smurfs.

Those are all good points, most of which I've addressed elsewhere (in a few cases, multiple times) in this thread. :)

Ultimately, this thread isn't about changing anyone's mind. I have a problem with what's been done in Swap Force and I was curious to see if anyone else shared my views. As it happens, a few people do. More importantly, this thread has started some good discussions, given a lot of people something to think about, and it may get the folks who continue to make Skylanders to consider future decisions in regards to their female players more carefully.

I personally will not purchase Swap Force because of Vicarious Vision/ActiVision's decisions regarding it. Other people have expressed that they will not purchase it for other reasons, and others are happy with it as it is. That's just fine. :) But if there is a problem (and this is a problem for many people whether everyone wants to acknowledge it or not), it cannot be addressed if it is not pointed out.

Quote: Rickorio

If Acti, or whoever is making these games, does things right, eventually, it should be an exact half and half between girls and boys.

I largely disagree for reasons already stated, plus I think that equality for the sake of equality is a flawed concept.
However I do believe that natural exploration of the possibilities presented in the Skylanders world will naturally lead to the creation of ever more strong, powerful female role-models.


Quote: Razz

I do, in fact, take issue with Nintendo's refusal to acknowledge the strong role of women in society in general, but that's another topic.

Ahh, Japan. The land that PC forgot.


Quote: Razz

I'm female. I like to play characters I can relate to, which are extremely few even today. Marketing so heavily to male players when females make up about half of the playing audience isn't okay anymore. Women and girls play games and they deserve representation just as much as men do, but they aren't getting it. That's not acceptable in the 21st century.

Wait, am I supposed to relate to a giant Whale, a floating eyeball and a somewhat unstable ball of blue fluff? That’s a specifically male role-model there?

Quote: Razz

As for the transgender issue... Kids are going to ask that anyway. They're going to want to know why there are no girls….

Because inexplicably they haven’t obtained any of the numerous female core characters of some reason?

Quote: Razz

Trans* people exist, these are questions society needs to be asking (and will ask) anyway…

Perhaps, but I’d suggest the 6+ age group might not be where we want to focus those questions. Quote: Razz

When your only role model in gaming is Lara Croft (and she didn't show up until you were a teenager) the near total lack of representation of your entire gender in a hobby you love sticks out a bit.

That’s a fair point… it is a bit odd to rake Skylanders over the coals when it is fairly inclusive.
And as I commented before, girls have more human role models in Skylanders than boys do.

Quote: Razz

I came up with a potential solution to the problem in less than five minutes ...

Yeah, but not a good one.

Quote: Razz

Lastly, there are no neutral Swaplanders. That appears to just be something that's being said in an attempt to appease. They all look distinctly male and have male voice actors so far.

They all look distinctly male, eh?
Quote: Razz

Hooray, I'm not the only one who imagines certain canonically male characters as female! Hot Dog, at least, is always a girl to me. Eye Brawl, too.

So, I guess they don’t all look distinctly male then?

I would say, I think they just should have skipped the voice for the neutral Skylanders and left it up to interpretation. I would consider the following Skylanders to be genderless:
Drill Sargent, Zap, Hotdog, Bash, Camo, Chop-Chop, Dino-rang, Drobot, Eruptor, Pop Fizz, Prism Break, Shroomboom, Trigger Happy, Stump-Smash, Wreaking Ball, Sun Burn, Terrafin, Warnado and Whamshell
There is nothing even vaguely male about any of these creatures outside of their voice actors.
In fact, some of these I still think of as Female… Zap, Sun Burn, Camo and Wreaking Ball all could be seen as females ‘pre Giants voice’.

I’d also call Double Trouble, Ghost Roster, Ignitor, Zook and Eyebrawl only nominally male. If the voice was female on any of those, I would expect too many people would question it.

Point being that these aren’t male OR female role-models. They’re just creatures, regardless of gender.

Quote: Razz

Hooray, I'm not the only one who imagines certain canonically male characters as female! Hot Dog, at least, is always a girl to me. Eye Brawl, too.

I think the "males are physically stronger" thing is less of a big deal than it's made out to be these days. There are female marines and armed services members who have now passed all the requirements for male members. Same with many female firefighters.

As far as everyone making male protagonists because it's easier/expected, there is very strong evidence to suggest that this has happened not because of consumer interest but because it's what marketers and publishers think will sell better. Even if this is the easy or expected route, it's something that is being challenged and needs to keep being challenged in gaming and other forms of media. When half of your consumer base is female, you do yourself a disservice by only marketing to the much smaller percentage which is teenage males.

Female skylanders are stronger and faster. In skylands male's might look stronger but females are better (gameplay wise Ninjini was the strongest Giant)

Actually, my post above is (mostly) me playing devil’s advocate. There isn’t really any reason not to have female swapforce characters at all – look at the bottom halves so far – a whirlwind, a wheel, spider legs, tentacles… there isn’t anything gendered about them at all. Assuming that there was no ‘female’ bottom half (dress, tutu or skirt) there really is no reason that gender swapping should come to mind.

Having said that, I still think that this is looking for offense where there is none, because:
1) There are plenty of playable female options.
2) There are more ‘human’ females in the game then ‘human’ males
3) The fantastical creatures that comprise the bulk of the characters are outside of traditional gender categorisations.

But yeah, there isn’t any good reason to avoid female swappers – in fact Hoot-loop looks like it should be talking in a grandmother’s voice.

Quote:

There isn’t really any reason not to have female swapforce characters at all – look at the bottom halves so far – a whirlwind, a wheel, spider legs, tentacles… there isn’t anything gendered about them at all

^That really is more evidence they could have made some female swapforcers.

I actually brought up the topic with my cousin while we played Giants and she said that since the swapforcers appear to be more animal/non-human looking characters, they could have made a female character like another robot or some sort of ice spirit.

As I said before, just give some female voices. Sorted. There are several that already look not necessarily male.
For female I'd suggest: Hoot Loop, Freeze Blade, Free Ranger and (maybe) Rattle Shake.
The robot and suit of armour are fairly ambiguous too.

Quote: spyrocrash

Quote:

There isn’t really any reason not to have female swapforce characters at all – look at the bottom halves so far – a whirlwind, a wheel, spider legs, tentacles… there isn’t anything gendered about them at all

^That really is more evidence they could have made some female swapforcers.

I actually brought up the topic with my cousin while we played Giants and she said that since the swapforcers appear to be more animal/non-human looking characters, they could have made a female character like another robot or some sort of ice spirit.

That's what they said

Guys, there back stories would confirm if they were a guy or not. Plus, would you really want a bunch of little kids asking there parents about the whole half male/half female?

Quote: Razz

Wait...wut? Some elemental types that have both already? Which is true, but we still have no female fire element and there's generally only one female per element so far (at most, two). Or some Swaplanders that are female? Which is not true, because they've all been confirmed to be male.

Elements along with how many that hasn't revealed
Fire complete
Water complete
Earth missing 2
Air missing 1
Tech complete
Life complete
Undead complete
Magic is missing 1

Notice they are all male and only 4 swap figures remain

Y'know, This whole crisis could have been averted IF activision did not give skylanders voices, thereby distinguishing their gender by the sound of their voices. I do not see a problem with having different gender swappers because think, that would be silly and about half the target audience (little kiddies) love silly things. Now activision would just have to to tell parents that it is meant to be silly and wacky and comical, so that the parents don't have a rebellion against activision for supposedly "poisoning" they're child's minds. Especially the crazy kookaburras that think the magic and undead elements are satanic.

Wow, this topic went nuts while I was asleep/playing "Okami" (not in that order). :D I don't really have anything else to add to it at present since what I would have said has been said. XD

While I enjoy some of the dialogue of the Skylanders, I always liked the thought of them having no speaking lines. Ah well.

re: Humanoid female characters
Funny you should bring that up... :D I'd actually prefer fewer of them and more monster ladies who didn't look so obviously feminine (Stealth Elf's growing cleavage line between SSA and Giants comes to mind). With the male Skylanders (at least canonically) we've got eyeballs in robot suits, snakes, weird voodoo monsters, walking trees, trolls, gremlins, dragons, giant bugs, robots, elves, fish guys, skunk dudes, octopus monsters, fu dogs, a krakken... The list just keeps going. With girls we have...elves, dragons, one robot, and one bird, with a huge majority of them being similarly-styled elf women. And the only new females we know of so far are both elves. I love all of the lady Skylanders, but the diversity of their creature types and body styles leaves much to be desired. I won't even get into how all of the humanoid ones are questionably sexualized with their form-fitting outfits or how all the girl dragons are limited to the same blue/purple color scheme.

There's no robo-girl.

Quote: Rickorio

There's no robo-girl.

She's referring to Sprocket.

Quote: spyrocrash

Quote: Rickorio

There's no robo-girl.

She's referring to Sprocket.

Well, she ain't no robot. Just has machinery.

Quote: Windumup

Quote: azz01

I think since they are making 16 swappers they should have made 8 male and 8 female.The 8 males swap with each other and the same for the females.

Except we already have some types that have both already
Like fire and water

I knew that but they should have done that.

I thought Sprocket was a robot. Is she just a cyborg, then? If that's the case, well...see my comment about every female being either an elf or a dragon (except our single birdie, Sonic Boom). I know Chill and Sprocket may not be elves, but the only thing that might differentiate them is a lack of ears, which isn't enough difference (and I still think Chill's ears are tucked under her helmet :D).

Quote: Razz

I thought Sprocket was a robot. Is she just a cyborg, then? If that's the case, well...see my comment about every female being either an elf or a dragon (except our single birdie, Sonic Boom). I know Chill and Sprocket may not be elves, but the only thing that might differentiate them is a lack of ears, which isn't enough difference (and I still think Chill's ears are tucked under her helmet ).

Her species is Golding and she is wearing a robotic suit.I did not want to be mean,I just wanted to clarify her species.

Quote: hardcoreignitor

Y'know, This whole crisis could have been averted IF activision did not give skylanders voices, thereby distinguishing their gender by the sound of their voices.

I’m still bitter that Sunburn and Zap are dudes.
Bring back gibberish! Down with voices!
Quote: Razz

While I enjoy some of the dialogue of the Skylanders, I always liked the thought of them having no speaking lines. Ah well.

As well as defining gender, I find many of the voices annoying and unnecessary.
They really reinforce the target market for the game, and I find that they make the whole thing feel a little more… childish. Not good childish, but childish in a bad way.
Quote: Razz

re: Humanoid female characters
Funny you should bring that up... I'd actually prefer fewer of them and more monster ladies who didn't look so obviously feminine (Stealth Elf's growing cleavage line between SSA and Giants comes to mind).

She got older? No?

Okay, I’m normally irked by the sexualisation of female characters (such as the portrayal of Faith on the cover of Mirror’s Edge), but I’m not sure about this… comparing the two figures they seem pretty alike to me. Or did you mean in the game?
Quote: Razz

With the male Skylanders (at least canonically) we've got eyeballs in robot suits, snakes, weird voodoo monsters, walking trees, trolls, gremlins, dragons, giant bugs, robots, elves, fish guys, skunk dudes, octopus monsters, fu dogs, a krakken... The list just keeps going. With girls we have...elves, dragons, one robot, and one bird, with a huge majority of them being similarly-styled elf women. And the only new females we know of so far are both elves. I love all of the lady Skylanders, but the diversity of their creature types and body styles leaves much to be desired. I won't even get into how all of the humanoid ones are questionably sexualized with their form-fitting outfits or how all the girl dragons are limited to the same blue/purple color scheme.

Fair call. Conversely, the lack of man humans is actually a little jarring to me – I guess it’s a case of different strokes for different folks.

I’ll just restate my preference for voiceless characters that are whatever gender I imagine them to be.
Female Sunburn and female Zap FTW!

re: Stealth Elf cleavage
It's really just been in the official art that I saw that one. In SSA, no cleavage. In Giants, cleavage. D:

I wouldn't mind seeing more humanoid male characters myself, just to balance it all out. We need more monster/beasty ladies, more humanoid dudes, and less voices overall. :D

Still think its all males.

"I’m still bitter that Sunburn and Zap are dudes.
Bring back gibberish! Down with voices!"

But I like sun burn sounding like bat man! D:

I can hardly understand zap though >.>

Yeah, it's been confirmed a few times now that all of the Swaplanders (all sixteen of them >( ) are male. Lame and lazy on the part of the dev team. :/

You can still enjoy them that way, Haseo. :) Just because not all of us do doesn't negate your enjoyment.

Quote: Razz

Yeah, it's been confirmed a few times now that all of the Swaplanders (all sixteen of them >( ) are male. Lame and lazy on the part of the dev team. :/

You can still enjoy them that way, Haseo. Just because not all of us do doesn't negate your enjoyment.

I heard they would but it is complicated due to the swappers already shown

I feel like people should have to read the whole thread before commenting.

I know, right? XD It's why I try not to spend so much time on forums these days. :D

Quote: Razz

Yeah, it's been confirmed a few times now that all of the Swaplanders (all sixteen of them >( ) are male. Lame and lazy on the part of the dev team. :/

You can still enjoy them that way, Haseo. Just because not all of us do doesn't negate your enjoyment.

They did it not because of gameplay, but because people will do it outside of gameplay as kids take these everywhere.

Quote: Razz

Yeah, it's been confirmed a few times now that all of the Swaplanders (all sixteen of them >( ) are male. Lame and lazy on the part of the dev team. :/

I'll give you lame, but I'd debate 'lazy'.

Anyhow, looking forward to seeing what TFB might bring to the table. I'm hoping they can address the balance.

Quote: Razz

=(except our single birdie, Sonic Boom).

Sonic Boom is a griffin!

Quote: Ezila01

Quote: Razz

=(except our single birdie, Sonic Boom).

Sonic Boom is a griffin!

Griffins are half bird, half lion. But when you see sonic boom, whats da first thing you think that she is, Thats Right, Birdie.

Guys, point has already been made. If they made a female swap force, there would be parents flipping pieces of dung at Activision for transgender and cross-dressing.

Yeah if the cross gender swapping happened parents wouldn't buy the kids the game and TFB and VV might not have the scratch to make another skylanders

Both of you should look through the rest of this topic as your argument has been brought up and debunked several times already.

Quote: Seiki

This was discussed in like at least 2 other topics. While they should have female swaplanders, they chose not to as it would offend people. All those people who dissaprove of the magic and undead elements would and even others would freak out and protest because of "transgender Skylanders".

Oh, for PETE'S SAKE! It's 2013 people, transgendered people are nothing new, time to grow up and get over it! I mean really though, I didn't even think of that and honestly I highly doubt most other people would have either and certainly not the kids these games are actually aimed at.

EDIT: And for that matter why does gender matter at all ? Unless I'm completely missing something, it doesn't even come into consideration within the context of the game. Many of the characters, being as different from humans (or any known creature for that matter) as they are can only be defined as having ANY gender because the developers said they are a guy or a girl and gave them feminine/masculine names.

EDIT again: Also, people say they must be worried about offending people with cross dressing, transgendered characters, and the like, but why was that not a problem with the trailers? They crossed Kaos with a princess and a ballerina at least as far as I can remember, and I don't recall any complaints over that. I realize that was done for comedic effect but as someone already said, that's been done a lot in kid's shows/games before, so why not actually IN Skylanders?

Quote: [url=http://forum.darkspyro.net/spyro/viewposts.php?topic=83345&post=4444333

EDIT: And for that matter why does gender matter at all ? Unless I'm completely missing something, it doesn't even come into consideration within the context of the game. Many of the characters, being as different from humans (or any known creature for that matter) as they are can only be defined as having ANY gender because the developers said they are a guy or a girl and gave them feminine/masculine names.

As I said before – it’s not like the lower halves are gendered in any way… it’s just robot legs, octopus legs, whirlwinds and snake tails. It’s not like any pieces have a massive package or an obvious female outline that would suggest gender swapping (and if a piece did sport a massive package you’ve got bigger problems than gender swapping.

Quote: NEW_SpyroLUVA

Quote: Seiki

This was discussed in like at least 2 other topics. While they should have female swaplanders, they chose not to as it would offend people. All those people who dissaprove of the magic and undead elements would and even others would freak out and protest because of "transgender Skylanders".

Oh, for PETE'S SAKE! It's 2013 people, transgendered people are nothing new, time to grow up and get over it! I mean really though, I didn't even think of that and honestly I highly doubt most other people would have either and certainly not the kids these games are actually aimed at.

EDIT: And for that matter why does gender matter at all ? Unless I'm completely missing something, it doesn't even come into consideration within the context of the game. Many of the characters, being as different from humans (or any known creature for that matter) as they are can only be defined as having ANY gender because the developers said they are a guy or a girl and gave them feminine/masculine names.

EDIT again: Also, people say they must be worried about offending people with cross dressing, transgendered characters, and the like, but why was that not a problem with the trailers? They crossed Kaos with a princess and a ballerina at least as far as I can remember, and I don't recall any complaints over that. I realize that was done for comedic effect but as someone already said, that's been done a lot in kid's shows/games before, so why not actually IN Skylanders?

I personally have no problem with it and am fully accepting of the LGBT community (especially since I'm part of it.)

The kids wouldn't care of course, their kids and still retain enough innocence to not even think about it, though have you heard of the Westboro Church? They are the gorup that hates Harry Potter because magic is evil, Pokemon because it involves slavery and animal cruelty, blamed homosexuals for the war in Iraq, and are ready and willing to hate on anything for any reason. Those kinds of parents are the ones expected to freak out over it.

Why even pay attention to them though? Since when did the opinions of bigoted idiots start counting for so much?

Quote: Tel Prydain

Quote: [url=http://forum.darkspyro.net/spyro/viewposts.php?topic=83345&post=4444333

EDIT: And for that matter why does gender matter at all ? Unless I'm completely missing something, it doesn't even come into consideration within the context of the game. Many of the characters, being as different from humans (or any known creature for that matter) as they are can only be defined as having ANY gender because the developers said they are a guy or a girl and gave them feminine/masculine names.

As I said before – it’s not like the lower halves are gendered in any way… it’s just robot legs, octopus legs, whirlwinds and snake tails. It’s not like any pieces have a massive package or an obvious female outline that would suggest gender swapping (and if a piece did sport a massive package you’ve got bigger problems than gender swapping.

LAWL! This made me crack up.


Quote: Seiki

Quote: NEW_SpyroLUVA

Quote: Seiki

This was discussed in like at least 2 other topics. While they should have female swaplanders, they chose not to as it would offend people. All those people who dissaprove of the magic and undead elements would and even others would freak out and protest because of "transgender Skylanders".

Oh, for PETE'S SAKE! It's 2013 people, transgendered people are nothing new, time to grow up and get over it! I mean really though, I didn't even think of that and honestly I highly doubt most other people would have either and certainly not the kids these games are actually aimed at.

EDIT: And for that matter why does gender matter at all ? Unless I'm completely missing something, it doesn't even come into consideration within the context of the game. Many of the characters, being as different from humans (or any known creature for that matter) as they are can only be defined as having ANY gender because the developers said they are a guy or a girl and gave them feminine/masculine names.

EDIT again: Also, people say they must be worried about offending people with cross dressing, transgendered characters, and the like, but why was that not a problem with the trailers? They crossed Kaos with a princess and a ballerina at least as far as I can remember, and I don't recall any complaints over that. I realize that was done for comedic effect but as someone already said, that's been done a lot in kid's shows/games before, so why not actually IN Skylanders?

I personally have no problem with it and am fully accepting of the LGBT community (especially since I'm part of it.)

The kids wouldn't care of course, their kids and still retain enough innocence to not even think about it, though have you heard of the Westboro Church? They are the gorup that hates Harry Potter because magic is evil, Pokemon because it involves slavery and animal cruelty, blamed homosexuals for the war in Iraq, and are ready and willing to hate on anything for any reason. Those kinds of parents are the ones expected to freak out over it.

Well, my parents agree with the whole magic is evil thing, but, when it comes to Pokemon, I don't watch for two reasons 1. My parents think its magic and 2. I think it's stupid.

Razz: I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do have to nit pick one tiny detail (hey, it's apparently what I do!).

You mention "Nintendo's refusal..."

While there is a distinct lack of women in video games in general, I'd like to point out that one of the first women of video games (probably second to Ms. Pac-Man, as far as any major/memorable titles go) would be kick ass bounty hunter Samus Aran.

Bonus to Nintendo, the women in their games aren't just over-sexualized trope women-esque characters either. Granted, you still have a lot of "Oh, Princess Peach was kidnapped." - but even Nintendo shook things up there and made Mario get kidnapped with Peach as the only one to save him. (sadly, they then ruined the concept by making the game dependent on Peach's extreme emotional mood swings.... but it was a fun game).

Anyway, the industry (and the world in general) has a long way to go, but I'd hardly say that Nintendo is "behind the curve" on this.

Cross gender swapping would land acti in some major doo doo
Do want the whole skylanders series to end just chill out

transgender swappers lol

The rest of this thread is mandatory reading if you wish to participate meaningfully in this discussion. And if you don't wish to participate meaningfully in this discussion, why are you here?

Thanks, Tel. :) Someone needed to say that.

Yeah but Razz, I think your forgetting that the females are some of the most OP Skylanders
Ninjini, Hex, Stealth Elf, the list goes on