darkSpyro

So I'm in a JJBA fan group on Facebook, and this one dude posted that it would be cool to have a black JoJo in part 9 or beyond. The majority of the comments were either racist jokes a la 4chan edgelords, or entire paragraphs explaining why it shouldn't happen.

I told ThefirstNapkin, who's had far more experience with anime forums than me, and he confirmed that stuff like that is pretty common. So I want to hear it from you guys. Did I just have a bad experience or is this an actual phenomenon?

Idk, I don't really follow communities for a lot of stuff.

Though on the idea of a black JoJo, while I do agree it would be cool I doubt it would happen, solely because a bloodline can't just switch races completely. Maybe a half black JoJo could happen.

Quote: 84skylanderdude

Though on the idea of a black JoJo, while I do agree it would be cool I doubt it would happen, solely because a bloodline can't just switch races completely. Maybe a half black JoJo could happen.

Not an invalid argument, but in a series where people can defy reality by breathing a certain way or summoning magic ghosts, I don't think biological accuracy is relevant anymore.

If your (you being the aforementioned naysayers, not you personally) argument is based on what's realistic, then you should also be posting entire paragraphs explaining why it's impossible to become vampires or stop time - that would make a hell of a lot more sense than an argument against a character's race. But they don't do that. If they want to be realistic, then why do they choose race? Why not all the other actually impossible stuff?

On another note, we see the same problem often in fantasy; there's a world with elves, dwarves, unicorns, and dragons, but all the people just happen to be white. Remember a few years ago, the Harry Potter play where a black girl was cast as Hermione, and people lost their freaking minds?

If realism is your argument, then realize that it doesn't work just one way.

Quote: Metallo

Quote: 84skylanderdude

Though on the idea of a black JoJo, while I do agree it would be cool I doubt it would happen, solely because a bloodline can't just switch races completely. Maybe a half black JoJo could happen.

Not an invalid argument, but in a series where people can defy reality by breathing a certain way or summoning magic ghosts, I don't think biological accuracy is relevant anymore.

If your (you being the aforementioned naysayers, not you personally) argument is based on what's realistic, then you should also be posting entire paragraphs explaining why it's impossible to become vampires or stop time - that would make a hell of a lot more sense than an argument against a character's race. But they don't do that. If they want to be realistic, then why do they choose race? Why not all the other actually impossible stuff?

On another note, we see the same problem often in fantasy; there's a world with elves, dwarves, unicorns, and dragons, but all the people just happen to be white. If realism is your argument, then realize that it doesn't work just one way.

Yeah, they have unrealistic abilities and stuff but genetics aren't changed by whatever abilities. If Araki somehow wrote it so they used an ability to make them black it's just be shoehorned in and completely random. The most I can see is a half-black scenario like with Pucci.

Quote: 84skylanderdude

Quote: Metallo

Quote: 84skylanderdude

Though on the idea of a black JoJo, while I do agree it would be cool I doubt it would happen, solely because a bloodline can't just switch races completely. Maybe a half black JoJo could happen.

Not an invalid argument, but in a series where people can defy reality by breathing a certain way or summoning magic ghosts, I don't think biological accuracy is relevant anymore.

If your (you being the aforementioned naysayers, not you personally) argument is based on what's realistic, then you should also be posting entire paragraphs explaining why it's impossible to become vampires or stop time - that would make a hell of a lot more sense than an argument against a character's race. But they don't do that. If they want to be realistic, then why do they choose race? Why not all the other actually impossible stuff?

On another note, we see the same problem often in fantasy; there's a world with elves, dwarves, unicorns, and dragons, but all the people just happen to be white. If realism is your argument, then realize that it doesn't work just one way.

Yeah, they have unrealistic abilities and stuff but genetics aren't changed by whatever abilities. If Araki somehow wrote it so they used an ability to make them black it's just be shoehorned in and completely random. The most I can see is a half-black scenario like with Pucci.

This is where it gets into the author's creativity, and that's always muddy. JoJo's been good about POC representation compared to most anime and manga, so there's that.

But my point is that when someone puts that much time and energy into arguing against an attribute, it's because they have a problem with said attribute. If you're (once again, not you personally) going to put that much effort into arguing against race, when there are other issues that are infinitely more unrealistic by your logic, then you have a problem with race. Simple as that.

From what I've seen, Japan itself can be a bit racist towards black people in general and overall racial diversity of anime characters isn't particularly that good. Personally, whatever. As long as the character is well written, let them be whatever race they want to be.

Is it just me or is weaboo culture basically modern equivalent to that racist Japanese caricature played by Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?

I'm not certain of the racism weeaboos can have (as opposed to the racism Japan itself does), but I certainly know some extreme weeaboos can be borderline xenophobic with their disdain towards the US and its culture (and really any western country), and how it's inferior to the flawless and perfect Japan.

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Quote: Metallo

But my point is that when someone puts that much time and energy into arguing against an attribute, it's because they have a problem with said attribute. If you're (once again, not you personally) going to put that much effort into arguing against race, when there are other issues that are infinitely more unrealistic by your logic, then you have a problem with race. Simple as that.

I'd have to disagree with that when it comes to established characters.
It's really only pandering when you change an established character's race, sex, etc., for absolutely no reason.
And something being unrealistic doesn't mean that everything should go either.

If something like that is done for no reason without any explanation, then it isn't a good thing whatsoever.
Having a character be a completely different race from their predecessors without any explanation is ridiculous.
If they had a black (Or any race, for that matter) character and explained that one of their parents was the same race, or something along the lines of them being adopted, that'd be perfectly understandable.

But doing it out of nowhere and not even explaining why just doesn't make any sense, even less so than a lot of the other crazy **** that goes on.
Yes, JoJo is really unrealistic, but stuff like this isn't something that should just be changed out of nowhere without so much as a reason why.

This is the exact same reason I'm against female/black/etc. Link, but at least he's actually an established character, whereas a black JoJo would be a bit more reasonable given that a reasoning beyond "why not?" is given.

And I have to disagree that changing a surface attribute of an established character is a bad thing. Since you mentioned Link, we'll go with him: if we did have a female or black Link, but the personality, actions, and narrative were all the same, would it really matter? Would it make the experience of gameplay any different? (Also keep in mind that there is practically no continuity in the Zelda games, which makes a case that Link is not an established character, but I digress) When you think about it, it happens all the time in other genres. The biggest example is superheroes: we have Miles Morales as the new Spider-Man, the black girl who becomes Iron Man, Kingpin, Electro, and the Human Torch were all played by black actors in film, and many who grew up watching Justice League: Unlimited were genuinely surprised when we found out Green Lantern was originally white.

But for all of these characters, the only true thing that changed was the color, and perhaps the name; the original narratives rang true within them. The only reason someone that these changes were met with such outrage is because these attributes were changed. It only follows, then, that seeing a character as a different race, different gender, different whatever, made the naysayers uncomfortable. I know it comes down to personal opinion, but sometimes asking what we think is less important than asking why we think it.

Quote: Sesshomaru75

It would matter to me, because he's been established character for 30 years now. Would it make me no play? No. But it would still not sit right with me.
I wouldn't want Samus to be male, or Cloud to be female either for the same reason. It would be pandering, which isn't good when it's done like that.
And yes, he is an established character. Yes, there are multiple Links, but they all follow the same overall character design and personality. Zelda and Ganon are no different either.

Comic book heroes usually seem to be a different case because, while they still have the same super hero identity, who they are behind the mask is usually different.
Link isn't really comparable in that sense because, while there are more than one, as I said before they're usually exactly the same overall.

Since you bring up pandering, I have to ask......What exactly is wrong with it? For generations, all of our fictional icons have been white. I know it sounds trivial, but POC have seen their heroes portrayed as inherently different than them. Why do we like fiction? Well, I think you'll agree that it does more than entertain us - in inspires us. When you grow up seeing your heroes, the people who inspire you, real or fake, inherently different from you, then it's easy to believe that you can't be great, that you'll never be a hero, too (and this is completely ignoring the psychological effects of seeing the people who oppressed your ancestors portrayed as the epitome of greatness - that's an entirely different subject altogether). So yeah, I don't think pandering is a bad thing at all. But that's personal opinion.

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Pandering itself isn't bad, but I think pandering is bad when it's done with established characters or works.

I have absolutely no problem with introducing new characters that are a certain race, sex, etc. because they are meant to be that way and pander to the people who are the same.
I wouldn't mind having a Zelda game where you actually play as Zelda, as an example.

I believe that there should be more representation in media, but I just personally would prefer it if new characters were made to fulfill this role instead of messing with established works.
I'd much rather have an interesting new black character than changing an existing character to be black because that honestly seems like a better form of representation and pandering to me, that's all.

From an industry perspective, the problem with creating new characters and stories is that it's a risk. Sometimes they become absolute hits, but most of the time, they flop. Artists do it with established characters, then, because they're already popular, and they already dominate the market. It has a far greater impact than creating new narratives.

What's a Jojo?

in a comic standpoint marvel at the moment has been doing this with a handful of characters with female thor, black captain american, and even a female iron man. Some of these characters are successful such as the islamic ms marvel but most of the time these changes will get headlines in the media and just start controversy for money. lets look at the female black iron man for example. she certainly did appear in the news as "new" and "inspiring" but after all the media coverage for her ended so did her sells. her book only sold 36,000 units last month and since this is the comic book industry it will most certainly decrease because all comics sell less after each issue is released. in anime maybe it's because weebs aren't use to the idea of skin colors outside of white and yellow in shows. sure there are characters who are black in anime but they aren't usually a main focus of the show because they don't attract to the target audience of anime who are primarily japanese people.

I have to agree with Sess about changing established characters. And this goes both ways. Whether it's white-washing an adaptation of a series that had characters of other races or even the opposite such as with the Attack on Titan movie where Mikasa is supposed to be the only Asian.

I'm fine with a little pandering and more than welcome more characters of minorities. I just have an issue when you replace existing characters to fulfill this. When long-standing, established characters get replaced by characters of minority groups, it becomes obvious that it was done for the sake of pandering. The character usually isn't as strongly written when their sole existence is done for pandering. They tend to become more of a racial gimmick or stereotype to draw in an audience that will move on to better written characters who are their given race for more arbitrary reasons and use it to make them stronger.

You said about it being a risk to create new ones, Metallo, and yes, that's true. However, people aren't always drawn to the mask, they can often relate to and love the face behind it. Replacing that face can just as easily push away your existing audience in an attempt to bring in a bigger one.

On the subject of black characters in anime though, I do know of Michiko and Hatchin which does have a mixed race female lead and is set in South America.