darkSpyro

sonicbrawler said not to derail the E3 predictions topic, so we'll be having this debate here, a topic literally made for it.

NOTE: Release dates are NA unless specified. I am also counting games that were released within the month of November 2007, because they were obviously in production at the same time as Galaxy, and it could not have possibly had any influence on them.

THE CONTESTED POINT:
Rosalina from Super Mario Galaxy is the reason we have strong female characters in games, and she set the trend of strong female characters in games, as of November 1st, 2007. (Japanese release date of Super Mario Galaxy)

CHARACTERS DEFYING THAT ARGUMENT:
Samus Aran, Metroid (August 6th, 1986, JP)
Lucca, Chrono Trigger (March 11th, 1995, JP)
Jill Valentine, Resident Evil (March 22nd, 1996, JP)
Lara Croft, Tomb Raider (October 25th, 1996, EU)
Alice, American McGee's Alice (December 5th, 2000)
Jade, Beyond Good & Evil (November 11th, 2003)
The Boss, Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (November 17th, 2004)
Chell and GLaDOS, Portal (October 9th, 2007, JP)
Commander Shepard, Mass Effect (November 16th, 2007, AUS)

These are just a few examples of strong female characters in games, that were not at all influenced by Rosalina. I'm sure other people can provide more.

Jesus Christ way to take something I said and try to warp it out of context for the purpose of attention whoring.

People weren't lying when they said you were one of the biggest tryhards on this site.

Quote: StriderSwag

THE CONTESTED POINT:
Rosalina from Super Mario Galaxy is the reason we have strong female characters in games, and she set the trend of strong female characters in games, as of November 1st, 2007. (Japanese release date of Super Mario Galaxy)

I'm not going to defend Brawler's points (the idea that Rosalina has any relation to the trend that gave us Ellie and Elizabeth is frankly ridiculous), but I'm pretty sure he didn't quite say that.

And the thread seems built to be less like a debate and discussion of strong female characters, and more a "Let's point out how wrong Brawler is" thread.

EDIT: And Brawler don't go throwing insults around.

Wow a picture of Sonic the Hedgehog! I'm so impressed!

No, I took it to another topic so we could continue the debate without derailing the topic, asshat.

Thanks for bringing insults into a reasonal debate
What even is a tryhard lol

Quote: CAV

Quote: StriderSwag

THE CONTESTED POINT:
Rosalina from Super Mario Galaxy is the reason we have strong female characters in games, and she set the trend of strong female characters in games, as of November 1st, 2007. (Japanese release date of Super Mario Galaxy)

I'm not going to defend Brawler's points(the idea that Rosalina has any relation to the trend that gave us Ellie and Elizabeth is frankly ridiculous), but I'm pretty sure he didn't quite say that.

And the thread seems built to be less like a debate and discussion of strong female characters, and more a "Let's point out how wrong Brawler is" thread.

Yeah, I'm really interested in talking about this but i'd prefer it be less one-sided.

Quote: pankakesparx456

Quote: CAV

Quote: StriderSwag

THE CONTESTED POINT:
Rosalina from Super Mario Galaxy is the reason we have strong female characters in games, and she set the trend of strong female characters in games, as of November 1st, 2007. (Japanese release date of Super Mario Galaxy)

I'm not going to defend Brawler's points(the idea that Rosalina has any relation to the trend that gave us Ellie and Elizabeth is frankly ridiculous), but I'm pretty sure he didn't quite say that.

And the thread seems built to be less like a debate and discussion of strong female characters, and more a "Let's point out how wrong Brawler is" thread.

Yeah, I'm really interested in talking about this but i'd prefer it be less one-sided.

Explain how I can fix it and maybe it will be.

Just before this topic gets out of hand.

Quote: StriderSwag

Quote: pankakesparx456

Quote: CAV

I'm not going to defend Brawler's points(the idea that Rosalina has any relation to the trend that gave us Ellie and Elizabeth is frankly ridiculous), but I'm pretty sure he didn't quite say that.

And the thread seems built to be less like a debate and discussion of strong female characters, and more a "Let's point out how wrong Brawler is" thread.

Yeah, I'm really interested in talking about this but i'd prefer it be less one-sided.

Explain how I can fix it and maybe it will be.

Well this is what sonicbrawler originally said:

Quote:

There has also been a surge of games with strong, female characters with more complex elements to their personality that go outside gaming stereotypes (not many video games portray a cool, powerful female character as a loving, adoptive mother too). Rosalina started the trend of these characters, with us getting similar characters like Ellie from Last of Us, Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite, and more, ever since - they may not be the main player character, but they tend to be the most memorable characters in their games regardless.

So he didn't outright say that Rosalina IS the reason for these kinds of characters.

Idk, maybe just outright quoting this in the point might help, i can't really describe why it feels one-sided to me(i don't even think that was the word i was looking for)

Quote: StriderSwag

Wow a picture of Sonic the Hedgehog! I'm so impressed!

No, I took it to another topic so we could continue the debate without derailing the topic, asshat.

Thanks for bringing insults into a reasonal debate
What even is a tryhard lol

Like literally the rest of your post is.
The irony.

I frankly don't want to waste my time getting into a long winded argument just because I said "everyone's favourite waifu" is a terrible character (FYI that isn't even an unpopular opinion anymore, a lot of people don't like Alyx), especially when the argument opens with you trying to say I said something very different to what I said.

Rosalina is a character that got agency in female characters in gaming going in the mainstream. Female characters before her didn't have enough of this. No, your precious Samus, Lara Croft, and Alyx didn't have agency either. That was my point. I didn't mean "she started strong female characters period". That's an entirely different thing altogether.

That's all I'm gonna say here. Feel free to vent to me in PM or something if you must. I'd rather it just be dropped though.

Who would have known simply saying I'd like a game starring one of my favourite characters would get people going this much? Sheesh.

Quote: pankakesparx456

Quote: StriderSwag

Quote: pankakesparx456

Yeah, I'm really interested in talking about this but i'd prefer it be less one-sided.

Explain how I can fix it and maybe it will be.

Well this is what sonicbrawler originally said:

Quote:

There has also been a surge of games with strong, female characters with more complex elements to their personality that go outside gaming stereotypes (not many video games portray a cool, powerful female character as a loving, adoptive mother too). Rosalina started the trend of these characters, with us getting similar characters like Ellie from Last of Us, Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite, and more, ever since - they may not be the main player character, but they tend to be the most memorable characters in their games regardless.

So he didn't outright say that Rosalina IS the reason for these kinds of characters.

Idk, maybe just outright quoting this in the point might help, i can't really describe why it feels one-sided to me(i don't even think that was the word i was looking for)

Well he rather implied it.
A summary of that paragraph is sort of "Rosalina started the recent trend of strong female characters" when there were actually a lot at that time. It wasn't entirely Rosalina, there were far more factors.
Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote: StriderSwag

Wow a picture of Sonic the Hedgehog! I'm so impressed!

No, I took it to another topic so we could continue the debate without derailing the topic, asshat.

Thanks for bringing insults into a reasonal debate
What even is a tryhard lol

Like literally the rest of your post is.
The irony.

I frankly don't want to waste my time getting into a long winded argument just because I said "everyone's favourite waifu" is a terrible character (FYI that isn't even an unpopular opinion anymore, a lot of people don't like Alyx), especially when the argument opens with you trying to say I said something very different to what I said.

Rosalina is a character that got agency in female characters in gaming going in the mainstream. Female characters before her didn't have enough of this. No, your precious Samus, Lara Croft, and Alyx didn't have agency either. That was my point. I didn't mean "she started strong female characters period". That's an entirely different thing altogether.

That's all I'm gonna say here. Feel free to vent to me in PM or something if you must. I'd rather it just be dropped though.

Who would have known simply saying I'd like a game starring one of my favourite characters would get people going this much? Sheesh.

I wasn't the one who started out flinging insults.

- - -

can this be a 'destroy metroid: other m' topic.

please tell me this can be a 'destroy metroid: other m' topic.

StriderSwag please stop with the "oh well Brawler did this and that". If you have a problem with me, vent in PM.

Quote: IsisStormDragon

can this be a 'destroy metroid: other m' topic.

please tell me this can be a 'destroy metroid: other m' topic.

By all means.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

StriderSwag please stop with the "oh well Brawler did this and that". If you have a problem with me, vent in PM.

Quote: IsisStormDragon

can this be a 'destroy metroid: other m' topic.

please tell me this can be a 'destroy metroid: other m' topic.

By all means.

I was just pointing that out. This isn't an issue to be brought to PM, nor do I have a problem with you.

And finally, we can agree on something.

god how far have you gotten with this rosalina thing

this week on my strange addiction sh**

rosalina invented women

As someone who's been playing the Tomb Raider games almost from the start, can't say as I agree with you at all about Lara Croft having no agency, SB. It is kind of offensive to say that a motherly princess figure is why we have so many tough female characters in gaming today and not, y'know, a metric butt ton of female gamers wanting to be represented or a ton of talented writers of all genders deciding to tell a different story for a change.. Also, Jade and Chell have agency and existed before Rosalina, as did characters like Midna, Zelda (as Tetra), Asheline (Jak & Daxter), and many, maaaany others. Heck, Princess Peach herself was kicking butt in Super Mario 2 decades before the Wii was even a thought.

Not trying to take sides or pick on anyone here. I just take issue with the generalization that Rosalina made gaming for women today what it is. That's not true at all. She's a great character but she, herself, stands on the shoulders of many other great female characters.

Something worth noting is that Sonicbrawler's original quote doesn't say that Rosalina is responsible for strong female characters. It's taken out of context and stretched to make him sound more asinine and wrong. His original statement is closer to saying that Rosalina had influence on the more recent influx of strong female characters (starting from gen 7 onward); NOT that she is responsible for all of them.

Do I agree with the actual statement? Not really. I think Rosalina didn't have influence on the creation of characters like Ellie or Elizabeth more than it was just a long time coming and a decision the respective creators came up with alone. But he never really said that Rosalina is the end all be all to female representation.

He's all about Rosalina, but he also knows better.

Quote: wakapro77

god how far have you gotten with this rosalina thing

this week on my strange addiction sh**

im crying holy ****

Bianca, Sheila, Cynder (I'm mainly talking about her villain self), The Sorceress and Elora from Spyro. Coco Bandicoot from Crash. Angela from Ratchet and Clank. AMATERASU FROM OKAMI

i think i rest my case.

also i agree with razz

Quote: CAV

Something worth noting is that Sonicbrawler's original quote doesn't say that Rosalina is responsible for strong female characters. It's taken out of context and stretched to make him sound more asinine and wrong. His original statement is closer to saying that Rosalina had influence on the more recent influx of strong female characters (starting from gen 7 onward); NOT that she is responsible for all of them.

Do I agree with the actual statement? Not really. I think Rosalina didn't have influence on the creation of characters like Ellie or Elizabeth more than it was just a long time coming and a decision the respective creators came up with alone. But he never really said that Rosalina is the end all be all to female representation.

He's all about Rosalina, but he also knows better.

I'm honestly confused though, because SB said that 'Rosalina started the trend'. So isn't that implying that he believes Rosalina is the main cause?

Quote: wakapro77

god how far have you gotten with this rosalina thing

this week on my strange addiction sh**

omg that was perfect lmao i'm dying

Quote: wakapro77

god how far have you gotten with this rosalina thing

this week on my strange addiction sh**

WELL I GUESS IT'S TIME FOR ME TO SCOOT SCOOT THE **** OUT OF HERE.

For me, Lightning (Final Fantasy XIII) is the strongest female video game character. She was a Soldier, Knight of a Goddess and the Savior and she defeated God.

Quote: XSparxX

For me, Lightning (Final Fantasy XIII) is the strongest female video game character. She was a Soldier, Knight of a Goddess and the Savior and she defeated God.

as a female i am very offended by this awful post

Literally none of you have gone back and read my original comment.

I said that Rosalina popularised the idea of female characters with agency, in mainstream gaming.

I didn't say much about "strong" female characters. Those existed before in spades. A strong character, however, does not equal a well written, or even interesting character.

Were their well written female characters with agency in games before Rosalina? Of course. However, they were rarely popularised and often were in niche titles (I love Jade and am eagerly awaiting BG&E2, Razz, but get back to me when you find out how many people here actually know who she is) and rarely had large importance in the game's universe. Suddenly, after Super Mario Galaxy, these characters had a surge of popularity and were often billed as a big selling point in games. While Rosalina doesn't have a direct influence on each and every character like this, you cannot deny that she had an influence, at least unconsciously, on how people handled female characters in their games. Super Mario Galaxy, whether you love it or hate it, was one of the most influential and revolutionary games in gaming history, in many aspects, Rosalina included, and that is an undeniable fact. Lots of people played it and experienced what it had to offer, and Rosalina herself, and the Lumas, were a well kept secret before the game released. So she caught people by surprise when they were expecting "just another Mario game where he saves Peach from Bowser". What's more, there are even various interviews where you can discover that this was kind of what Nintendo was going for with Rosalina, and the real clincher here? When Nintendo celebrated Women's History Month with a press release recently, they put a bunch of their influential female characters on it. Guess who is on that list of seven characters?

None of what I say about Rosalina on this subject is "blind fanboyism". It is the result of careful research as both an avid gamer, and as someone who has completed academic video game design courses, and having knowledge on video game history is something you need there.

Now if we wanna get real technical here, this whole farce did not start with me even saying Rosalina was influential (which, by the way, was all I initially said, and you cannot deny that she is influential at all - she is at least incredibly influential to the Mario franchise itself, and certainly to the current team at Nintendo EAD. That much is completely obvious). This started when I was asked on what would my dream games for E3 2015 be, and among my desired games, I mentioned "a Rosalina game". That made zer0dch and StriderSwag pissy simply because they're bitter about Rosalina being in Smash and Mario Kart, and when they questioned what a Rosalina game could even be, they got pissy when I gave them explanations and ideas.

jesus christ everyone forgets about zelda's lot of female characters

Quote: DarkCynder_543

jesus christ everyone forgets about zelda's lot of female characters

Most of Zelda's female characters take a back seat or have their portrayal messed with half way through the game. Midna is one of my favourite Zelda characters, but even I won't deny she has plenty of problems.

^ Problems like...? I've never seen any problems with her as a character. She was brilliant all the way through and has the most back story and character development of all Zelda characters. To me it was more of the fact that TP as a game could have been handled better. And Zelda from TWW was pretty great all the way through, especially as Tetra.

But yeah I do agree that Rosalina is an influential character. I do think that there are certain characters that I prefer who have been around longer like ones I've previously mentioned, but Rosalina is still a great character, and her story book would make a pretty decent game.

I also agree that people shouldn't be pissy over you wanting a Rosalina game, because honestly that's just immature. I'm just happy that Yoshi is still in Mario Kart and Super Smash and will more than likely forever stay in those games, since Yoshi is part of my childhood, especially with Yoshi Story.

Wait, how is Rosalina a strong female character? Don't get me wrong, i like her a lot and her back story is cool but i don't see how she's strong.

-While I don't consider it a "problem" per se myself, more something I need to clear up - you did say that Midna "isn't sexualised", and I'm gonna have to completely disagree there - literally her two designs are either "nude loli with uncharacteristically great hips and ass", or "half naked amazon woman", which both fit neatly into distinct fetishes that are popular in Japanese/weeaboo culture, and there is no doubt in my mind that this was intentional, especially since they further capitalised on it in Hyrule Warriors (a game built to celebrate the things people love about Zelda):



I know people are gonna throw the "well Koei Tecmo made that and they always sexualise things", but Eiji Aonuma and Shigeru Miyamoto DID heavily supervise this game, to the point where the game was ORIGINALLY gonna be more like a traditional Zelda game, but Miyamoto got angry at that notion and basically had them start it again as more of a Dynasty Warriors game in terms of how it plays.

-Being completely honest, Midna became incredibly bland at about the halfway point of TP, until we got to the ending. She lost a lot of her personality and sass, and while I know it's partly because of THAT one thing that happened to her at that point, I still think basically making her Zelda 2.0 (which was ironic, since her character up until that point was in complete contrast to Zelda's) was the wrong way to utilise her character at this point. She basically became Link's slave for that entire period. And I think that was a terrible way to utilise her character.

-Midna hails from a very divisive game in the Zelda franchise, often regarded as one of the worst by a noticeable amount of people. This greatly limits her potential to be influential since the game didn't have as wide a reach as something like Galaxy, let alone a reception nearly as positive. And the afforementioned problems don't help.

-Midna is a one shot character. She's never going to come back into a main series Zelda game, and Zelda doesn't really have spin-offs that bring together a bunch of characters from different parts of the timeline that often. Unlike Rosalina (who was also intended to be a one shot character), she didn't have a fanbase loud enough to reach Nintendo and bring her back, and even if she did, bringing her back for another main series Zelda game would **** with the entire poignancy of her ending in TP, even if they brought her back in a direct sequel to TP. People also try to throw this argument at Rosalina, but the secret ending for Galaxy, that focuses on Rosalina, WAS a sequel hook from the very beginning. TP's ending isn't. It's conclusive and is meant to be poignant and bittersweet. So Midna isn't an influential mainstay like Rosalina, she's merely a fan favourite character that comes back on the RARE occasion Zelda has a spin-off, and of course she's an assist trophy in Smash Bros too (I wish she was playable, though), but for the time being they aren't going to do much else with her, especially since Skyward Sword is more influential in terms of what is currently being done with Zelda as a marketing tool (e.g. the Zelda DLC in MK8 and Sonic Lost World both reference Skyward Sword the most, with the TP references being much more subtle). Maybe they will remake/remaster TP one day like they did with Wind Waker, but that's about all I can see them doing involving Midna at this point.

Quote: DragonCamo

Wait, how is Rosalina a strong female character? Don't get me wrong, i like her a lot and her back story is cool but i don't see how she's strong.

She's literally the Mario universe's equivalent to god. She's immortal, has tended to multiple reincarnations of the universe, she became adoptive mother to an ENTIRE RACE at a young age, was an experienced mechanic and architect at a young age, lived without her parents for YEARS (even under the delusion that they were "still out there somewhere", which she did eventually accept as a lie anyway), and has a bunch of amazing powers such as flight, teleportation, control over gravity, creating cosmic clones of herself, mind control, and more. She also HAPPENS to be the best character stats wise in pretty much every game she appears as playable in.

Also she's shown to be physically strong in Mario Kart and Mario Party 10 too, and many of her bios emphasise that she is tough and strong:

Quote:

Rosalina travels through space in a starship called the Comet Observatory. Motherly and protective of the many Lumas that she travels with, she guards the cosmos against any and all threats. Wielding a Star Wand and her signature blue dress, Rosalina always seems cool even in the face of danger.

Amiibo Profile

Quote:

"While gentle and sweet, Rosalina has a tall and commanding presence behind the wheel."

Mario Kart 7 Official Site (US)

Quote:

"Tougher than she looks, Rosalina can take hard knocks and makes up for what she lacks in acceleration with great top speed."

Mario Kart 7 Official Site (UK)

Also, in Smash Wii U, in the Palutena's Guidance for Rosalina, Pit notes that Rosalina can be rough with the Lumas at times.

I've heard plenty of people say it is one of the worst (though that might not automatically mean they think the game is terrible outright), and I certainly see quite a few Zelda fans who hate the game as a whole.

It's not a terrible game by any stretch, but it's definitely divisive. Which is all I ever said.

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Quote: sonicbrawler182

I've heard plenty of people say it is one of the worst (though that might not automatically mean they think the game is terrible outright), and I certainly see quite a few Zelda fans who hate the game as a whole.

It's not a terrible game by any stretch, but it's definitely divisive. Which is all I ever said.

That's really weird then because I've never heard anyone say that whatsoever.

It's definitely divisive if you compare it to the likes of TWW, which is ironic considering people used to like TP more.

And I wasn't trying to imply that you yourself think it's the worst or "one of the worst", just that I've never actually ever heard someone say that.

Also, tbh, I feel that the original game is the worst, but that's just me. (though I'm not saying it's a bad game either)

Spirit Tracks tho
He was the HERO OF TRAINS

I liked Spirit Tracks well enough. Just because he was the Hero of SomethingRatherAmusing, doesn't mean the entire game was bad.

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Yeah, I agree. Tbh, the only part of ST that I disliked was trying to learn and play the songs on the flute because it always a pain for me for some reason. DX

Oh man, blowing into the mike was terrible. But it was a pretty fun game despite that.

Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII-1? She at least had a lot more merit than in the sequels, where she's giving godly powers for no good reason.

Quote: StevemacQ

Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII-1? She at least had a lot more merit than in the sequels, where she's giving godly powers for no good reason.

Ugh, dude, Lightning was awful. She contributed nothing, and at most she only turned around because she looked like the bad person and "MUH SISTER"

I thought Lightning was fine in all of the games to be honest. Never understood the hate.

You simply don't seem to understand Lightnings character. Go ahead and praise your beloved Cloud as well as those other dumb video game girls. But Lightning, no, she gets all the hate for nothing. ~~~

Cloud is a guy, and cross-dresses for one part of the game. Why are you trying to force Cloud to become the opposite gender wtf?

Because Cloud is the most OVER hyped (emo) character in the whole Final Fantasy series o,ô

yes .

Quote: XSparxX

You simply don't seem to understand Lightnings character. Go ahead and praise your beloved Cloud as well as those other dumb video game girls. But Lightning, no, she gets all the hate for nothing. ~~~

real talk
every character > lightning

Quote: arceustheprime

Quote: XSparxX

You simply don't seem to understand Lightnings character. Go ahead and praise your beloved Cloud as well as those other dumb video game girls. But Lightning, no, she gets all the hate for nothing. ~~~

real talk
every character > lightning

did lightning steal ur boomerang and give it to hope?

is that y ur mad at her?

Quote: XSparxX

Because Cloud is the most OVER hyped (emo) character in the whole Final Fantasy series o,ô

Cloud is DEFINITELY overhyped tbh

Quote: TacoMakerSkys

Cloud is a guy, and cross-dresses for one part of the game. Why are you trying to force Cloud to become the opposite gender wtf?

H- he never said Cloud is a girl...