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Skylanders, genders, and marketing
kiz3000 Yellow Sparx Gems: 1734
#51 Posted: 12:57:59 28/04/2014
I don't have much to contribute here but what I will say is that I found it a step backwards when they made every character have a voice in Giants. There are Skylanders, that without voices, could fit into any gender, like Wrecking Ball, Double Trouble, Hot Dog, Ignitor, Star Strike, Smolderdash, Pop Thorn and maybe a few others I missed. Given them masculine or feminine voices forces them into the gender binary, particularly for children, that could be completely ignored without the voices.

Also, particularly on the pets like Hot Dog and Wrecking Ball, the voices are very forced and are unnecessary in their own right.
oogamania Yellow Sparx Gems: 1417
#52 Posted: 14:05:49 28/04/2014 | Topic Creator
Helix_Wishes, I apologize for calling you the wrong username, however there is no reason to be so offensive.
In your post you’ve mentioned “I have a feeling it's development is an old boys club, in all of the media I've seen in all of the media” which I assumed was all of the multi-media, rather than just Skylanders.

Why are you so concerned about the biological role and power of males and females? Who said that girls are weak and why would you assume that boys are raised to learn that girls are weak? I just wanted to talk about marketing and Skylanders. This type of discussion of why there are fewer females than males should be in the Stuff and Nonsense section. I shall not respond further over this.
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OimakKamio Yellow Sparx Gems: 1643
#53 Posted: 14:39:53 28/04/2014
honestly this has been a hot topic. Its a dumb topic, because they are toys. I have a niece who plays Lightning Rod. She's 7 she doenst care. I wouldnt be surprised if the total number of toys this one that are female is about 40%. I dont think it will affect sales one way or another honestly. just my opinion.
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Lioned33 PS4
LORD OIMAK XBOX
Hexin_Wishes Yellow Sparx Gems: 1522
#54 Posted: 16:34:50 28/04/2014
Quote: oogamania
Helix_Wishes, I apologize for calling you the wrong username, however there is no reason to be so offensive.
In your post you’ve mentioned “I have a feeling it's development is an old boys club, in all of the media I've seen in all of the media” which I assumed was all of the multi-media, rather than just Skylanders.

Why are you so concerned about the biological role and power of males and females? Who said that girls are weak and why would you assume that boys are raised to learn that girls are weak? I just wanted to talk about marketing and Skylanders. This type of discussion of why there are fewer females than males should be in the Stuff and Nonsense section. I shall not respond further over this.


If you won't even properly read what I said and instead continue to pull it into a direction that was not even my intention than there is no point in talking to you is there? Your response is not missed.
shadowfox Platinum Sparx Gems: 5051
#55 Posted: 16:52:42 28/04/2014
Sadly, I wonder how many people who disagree or are saying stop complaining are male. It shouldnt make a difference what your opinion and gender are and how they correlate but they do. It all leads down to perspective. How can a male fully say what it is like for a female on gender equality. Well I have this female family member. Good for you it dosent bleeepin matter. Bottom line.You dont know what it is like being a girl. You dont know what its like to have equal representation on the sexual level. Thus sympathize vs empathize.

On the same hand, girls dont know what its llike to be a boy. Young boys can get the crap beaten out of them from other classmates if they openly like girly things. As a girl, I dont know what its. I see it all the time at work. Whenever a new male worker comes in there like this weird ritual that comes in. Like that guy code thing from How I Meet Your Mother.


Though for earlier stuff
Though the female in power was an interesting thing. As a girl in school I played n64. I was not given any negative comments for playing boy video games. However once the boys found out I had beaten their levels in some of the games, I (the only girl in the group) was ostracized very harshly until they had beaten the level too. Nobody else got that treatment and it was because I was female. They didnt know how to handle a girl beating them.
jet-vac6000 Yellow Sparx Gems: 1718
#56 Posted: 18:03:12 28/04/2014
Ah, you see this is interesting, and I had a discussion with Razz about this recently...
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Eggs
Zylek Yellow Sparx Gems: 1920
#57 Posted: 18:11:52 28/04/2014
Being a father of a 7 year old daughter, I have been pretty happy with them providing a good amount of female characters. I guess I don't mind Stealth Elf being overused as much as she has been in the series because she is a great strong female character. I do wish they would have not taken the safe route on SSF by having all the Swappers being obviously male even though they say they weren't. My daughter was very upset when they revealed all the characters and none of them were female, she didn't even want to play the game after that.

But I guess Giants wasn't much better, they had one token female giant and then didn't release her until we barely played the game anymore.
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Edited 1 time - Last edited at 19:47:05 28/04/2014 by Zylek
jet-vac6000 Yellow Sparx Gems: 1718
#58 Posted: 18:20:02 28/04/2014
^ Also, female characters have nowhere near the variety when it comes to design compared to that of male characters...
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Eggs
wideawakewesley Emerald Sparx Gems: 3271
#59 Posted: 19:16:18 28/04/2014
Quote: jet-vac6000
^ Also, female characters have nowhere near the variety when it comes to design compared to that of male characters...


I'd love a character like Wallop to be female. Can we have a Brienne (Game Of Thrones) style female Skylander?
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Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#60 Posted: 20:00:13 28/04/2014
Beefy Amazonian female Skylander so needs to happen. :D

I don't have much to say to the stuff that's been posted today other than that this is some good quality discussion going on here. :)

re: Equality vs. Uniqueness
The person who was arguing that does not seem to have a clear grasp of what equality means. :/ Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in a group and that's good. Equality is not about erasing those things or homogenizing everybody. Equality is about leveling the playing field so that one side (in this case, men) is not given an unfair advantage over another. In our current culture, men are given many privileges that women are not (higher representation even though the population is about 50/50 with men and women; better paying jobs regardless of the work; overall more respect culturally solely because they are men; etc.).

re: Boys vs. Girls
Making things equal on the gender playing field would actually benefit boys just as much as girls. When femininity is no longer vilified, you will see much fewer boys getting beaten up or made fun of for liking "girly" things. As for women in the military, there are a lot but not as many as there could be because the military is still something of a good ol' boys' club and encourages the harassment and abuse of its female service members as well as refusing to accommodate them (with things like military uniforms that fit a woman's body type better).

Lastly:

Quote:
I don't hear these people complaining that Skylanders need more females complain that the X-men line-up needs more males (currently all females).


What X-Men are you reading? Last I checked, it is still mostly composed of men and all the women are pretty grossly over-sexualized. I love X-Men, but it definitely needs work (the comics industry in general is one of the most sexist, female unfriendly industries in existence currently, rivaled only by the gaming industry for how nasty it is toward women working in it, let alone women being mis- or under-represented as characters within its media).
PurpleSnurple Yellow Sparx Gems: 1264
#61 Posted: 20:18:59 28/04/2014
I don't think this has been mentioned yet, and I want to make it clear that I have degrees in Anthropology and Biology so I've been trained for years on how to best remain neutral in my observations on the outside (although that's impossible by it's very definition)... but particularly in American culture in an attempt to swing the pendulum towards equality it often appears that people forget to look at societal views on men/boys.

From my own childhood experiences I grew up buying everything from Barbie and My Little Pony to Jurassic Park, Power Rangers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, etc. freely and played with both equally. Whilst my brother was restricted to the latter by peer pressure. Granted I was very much a tomboy and grew up in a neighborhood of all boys, but I was never ostracized or excluded when we played rough games.

Today, as an adult, I have a great amount of freedom to buy ANYTHING I want because of our societal structure now. I can go into a store and buy cute adorable girl things I want (such as plush dolls) or I can go and buy men's underwear and a rifle without a second look from anybody. However, my boyfriend (who is not your typical guy) feels extremely restricted by society in what he can like/buy. He loves cute plush dolls and adorable gimmicks in the stores, but always has me carry and buy them for him because I don't get the looks he gets. He does not have the freedom to walk into a store and buy ANYTHING without attracting attention. How often do you see guys with the freedom to buy girl's products or cute toys when they're shopping alone?

It's just a side note to this whole gender discussion that often gets overlooked by people hyped up on female equality. In my opinion, I have a lot more freedoms and leeway as a woman now than men currently. I'm just as educated in my field as my boyfriend, but I tend to notice more freedoms (perhaps from society's attempt to swing that pendulum).

I dunno. I personally don't think girls today receive any grief or peer pressure from playing and liking "boy toys" compared to the stigma that is still placed on boys. My favorite color was blue and my favorite franchise was Jurassic Park, but heaven forbid if my brother decided to start liking Pink and went shopping for Barbie.
GhostRoaster Yellow Sparx Gems: 1803
#62 Posted: 20:30:33 28/04/2014
I think if we let the government just take charge of our children all of these predefined roles and prejudices would disappear. Who's with me?
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Graz73 Emerald Sparx Gems: 3215
#63 Posted: 20:32:05 28/04/2014
My daughter enjoys these games but much prefers playing as the girl characters. She was instantly annoyed when the trap team intro video seemed to show no female characters.

Maybe they know that most of their audience are boys, but I think they are very short sited of they dont try to nurture and expand the girls who want to play these games.
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Earth-Dragon Blue Sparx Gems: 972
#64 Posted: 21:02:16 28/04/2014
Quote: Razz



Lastly:

Quote:
I don't hear these people complaining that Skylanders need more females complain that the X-men line-up needs more males (currently all females).


What X-Men are you reading? Last I checked, it is still mostly composed of men and all the women are pretty grossly over-sexualized. I love X-Men, but it definitely needs work (the comics industry in general is one of the most sexist, female unfriendly industries in existence currently, rivaled only by the gaming industry for how nasty it is toward women working in it, let alone women being mis- or under-represented as characters within its media).



So you essentially know nothing on the subject but then comment and tell me I'm wrong? The main x-men comic has been a solid female team, and as a true feminist, since that hurts your stance of being "the victim" you ignore it and claim it doesn't exist.

Thanks for proving the point.

http://marvel.com/comics/issue/46776/x-men_2013_1
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Glad heroic challenges are gone. Imagine doing 165 per skylander. That's 27225 challenges. No thank you.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 21:12:28 28/04/2014 by Earth-Dragon
shadowfox Platinum Sparx Gems: 5051
#65 Posted: 21:57:05 28/04/2014
I wonder why the selling point is it has women and not the plot. Remind me more of playboy aimed at males than equality for females with them big boobs, uncomfortable contorted positions just to look sexy, unrealistic body types, etc.
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#66 Posted: 22:24:39 28/04/2014
Quote:
So you essentially know nothing on the subject but then comment and tell me I'm wrong? The main x-men comic has been a solid female team, and as a true feminist, since that hurts your stance of being "the victim" you ignore it and claim it doesn't exist.

Thanks for proving the point.

http://marvel.com/comics/issue/46776/x-men_2013_1


I am friends with a few women in the comics industry and I've read a great many posts and articles by other women in that industry who validate my earlier point that is an extremely sexist job market right now ("fake geek girls" ring any bells?). I wasn't intending to be rude when I made my original comment and it still reads as pretty friendly to me, but you've responded with gross assumptions and vitriol on top of them. It doesn't make me want to see your side of things any better. And this appears to be a fairly new line of X-Men comics focused on a female team. Compare that to 50+ years of those comics featuring predominantly male casts and over-sexualized characters like Emma Frost and Mystique (I like Mystique bunches, but she's naked all the time and not a character without problems). Most of my X-Men knowledge comes from the movies and cartoons, but I've seen enough of the older comics to discuss them. So thanks for being really entitled and nasty to boot in response to my reasonable statement that is backed up by decades' worth of comic books and the stories of real women working in that industry. :) For the record, I was asking you a legitimate question because an all-female X-Men series sounds cool. The rudeness was uncalled for.

(Edit: Looking at the cover and reading the plot synopsis of that X-Men issue didn't make it look any more interesting than anything else written by men for women but mostly for other men. Maybe it's better than it looks, but the preview sure doesn't make me want to spend my money on it.)

re: The way boys are treated today.
Inequality seems to have different negative effects on both genders. Women get sidelined, ignored, and face violence/hrassment. Men get ridiculed, grossly stereotyped, and injured by this same system. It's bad for everybody, really.
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 22:37:53 28/04/2014 by Razz
Earth-Dragon Blue Sparx Gems: 972
#67 Posted: 22:25:53 28/04/2014
Except their sales research shows that females readers were the ones buying it.

We can act like "boys" go gaga over this stuff, but it's the girls who buy these sorts of books (at least from a vantage point of a higher percentage if sales are to women). So let's not blame this on the boys.
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Glad heroic challenges are gone. Imagine doing 165 per skylander. That's 27225 challenges. No thank you.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 22:39:10 28/04/2014 by Earth-Dragon
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#68 Posted: 22:32:30 28/04/2014
Which books are women buying, though? The new ones focusing on more female characters, or the old ones all about the guys? Do we know why they're buying them (maybe some just like hunky dudes or the story is appealing)? And how are "they" (I presume Marvel's marketing department) getting these stats? Or do you mean that female readers are buying the new X-Men line focused on women (if yes, that's very telling in itself and proves my point that women like things that represent them and respond favorably to that)?

That still doesn't change that DC fired all its women writers in 2011 (I think that's when the new 52 came out) and you can find hundreds of tales of female comics creators in the industry being harassed or unable to get work at all solely because of their sex/gender.

But this is getting pretty OT since we're talking about Skylanders and representing gender more equally in series marketed at a younger audience. The problems in the comics industry mirror the same sexist problems in the games industry, yes, but it's still kind of OT.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 22:34:56 28/04/2014 by Razz
Earth-Dragon Blue Sparx Gems: 972
#69 Posted: 22:41:43 28/04/2014
And maybe you should show a report that comics are a worse work environment for women than others. I showed you the all female line-up that didn't exist.

Bottomline you are making excuses. You said it was dominated by males, I showed you an all-female team. Then it was a complaint how they were overly sexualized, but that is a divergence as so are the men. They aren't showing favorites there. Then makes claims that a RIVAL company is acting inappropriately, which has little to do with Marval. Instead of saying "Hey, can we even this out a bit", it's "Look at this comic that against women".

That's how the 21st century argument works. Just take every angle you can that something is against women until it works and people get behind it.

Edit - drat.....need to get off my phone. So many typos.
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Glad heroic challenges are gone. Imagine doing 165 per skylander. That's 27225 challenges. No thank you.
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 22:53:53 28/04/2014 by Earth-Dragon
melvimbe Yellow Sparx Gems: 1327
#70 Posted: 22:44:39 28/04/2014
Quote: Razz

re: Equality vs. Uniqueness
The person who was arguing that does not seem to have a clear grasp of what equality means. :/ Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in a group and that's good. Equality is not about erasing those things or homogenizing everybody. Equality is about leveling the playing field so that one side (in this case, men) is not given an unfair advantage over another. In our current culture, men are given many privileges that women are not (higher representation even though the population is about 50/50 with men and women; better paying jobs regardless of the work; overall more respect culturally solely because they are men; etc.).


What bugs me when I hear statements like this is there is no mention of the fact that women also receive many benefits that women do not. Men tend to have a higher expectation to provide for the family, have very little say in reproductive rights, rarely are the recipients of child support/alimony payments, etc etc. And I'm not saying all this needs to change. I don't think life is fair, and some of us are going to have a rougher time then others. Some of it is due to society we currently live in, some from bad choices, and some just due to nature. Society can change, sure, but there also needs to be an element of "stop complaining and deal with it" and element of "maybe you're the one who needs to adapt, and not society".

I believe this has been mentioned before, but the female non-player characters in Skylanders are always portrayed and intelligent, independent, etc, while the males are kinda stupid and/or cocky. I think the bad guys are mostly not that gender specific, although the bosses/villains are. Again, the male ones are cocky and stupid while the women are smart and independent. Notice too that you never directly fight Mesmeralda or Kaos Mom, you to fight their minions or break a mirror or whatever. Would it be better if they showed it was ok to hit a woman, because she's equal to a man? I'm not really for that, though I don't think this would have a big impact overall. And I'm really not all that against males portrayed as buffoons from time to time.
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#71 Posted: 23:01:15 28/04/2014
Quote:
And maybe you should show a report that comics are a worse work environment for women than others. I showed you the all female line-up that didn't exist.


When did I say that? (Answer: I didn't. Read the whole post before commenting on it. :D) I said the comics industry is a negative environment for women and also so is the gaming industry and those are just two examples (I brought up the military earlier as one of the worst). And where are you getting the idea that I've ever implied that there's no such thing as an all-female lineup in media? I've watched My Little Pony since I was a kid. Sailor Moon, too. "All female lineup" is not even what this topic has been about or what anyone (that I can tell, anyway) is saying should happen to Skylanders. "More than 18% female characters" is not "OMG, all Skylanders should be ladies and no boys allowed! >:(".

Quote:
Men tend to have a higher expectation to provide for the family, have very little say in reproductive rights, rarely are the recipients of child support/alimony payments, etc etc.


This is sort of comparing apples to carrots. Whether men are expected to provide for their families or not, they are still making $1 to every $0.75 earned by a woman. All of the current laws on the books for reproductive rights were written by men (and many of these laws take safety and personal agency away from women). Men are rarely the recipients of child support payments because they rarely take on the care of their children. I'll give you the alimony thing but, again, most divorces like this involve children and the mother getting rights to care for those children and, thus, needing more money to do that effectively.

Quote:
And I'm not saying all this needs to change. I don't think life is fair, and some of us are going to have a rougher time then others. Some of it is due to society we currently live in, some from bad choices, and some just due to nature. Society can change, sure, but there also needs to be an element of "stop complaining and deal with it" and element of "maybe you're the one who needs to adapt, and not society".


If a system is broken, why keep using it? The current system does a disservice to both men and women. This is something we can change (and if you look at history, you will find examples of many societies which treated the sexes more equally and fairly than we do now; ancient Egypt, Rome, the middle ages in Europe, many Native American societies...). I am not a fan of "stop complaining and deal with it"; that's the attitude that digs the hole deeper. Problems don't just go away and nobody should have to live with something that is dehumanizing or so unfair that children can be bothered by it.

I'm disabled and I do what I can to adapt to the world around me. But y'know what? Sometimes that is just not possible and, in order for me to have the same opportunities that everyone else has, society at large needs to make concessions. Because other disabled people stood up and said they were sick of things like working in sweat shops for little/no pay, we have laws like the Americans with Disabilities Act in place. The same sort of fight is going on right now with gender equality, but it's been going on a lot longer and we're not where we could be with it (especially since our ancient ancestors can do it better in many regards; that's just sad).
Hexin_Wishes Yellow Sparx Gems: 1522
#72 Posted: 23:07:31 28/04/2014
This thread has gone off the Skylanders realm I see, OK let's play:

Boys don't have it easy either. No one said they did, the way they are raised is often tragic and broken: Emphasis on brute masculinity and how it's "degrading" to be anywhere near feminine.

Regardless of what sex they are, it's not OK to hit anyone period. IN SAYING THAT, if you're going to start some physical *hit, there are repercussions. A woman isn't weak simply because she has a vagina so it's a poor excuse to not defend yourself against a woman who is attacking you simply because of that biological fact. I mean, guys, if a 200lb (of solid muscle) woman started hitting you, would you still be like "no, I can't. She's a woman and I'm stronger"? Lulz... take a pic of your face after the encounter and post it here for all to witness the extent of your chivalry.

In regards to hypersexualizing, I'm for the objectification and sexualization of both adult genders so it never bothered me unless there was a massive divide in standards (i.e. armored males while the females are essentially wearing dental floss).
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 23:32:26 28/04/2014 by Hexin_Wishes
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#73 Posted: 23:22:51 28/04/2014
^ Yes, all of that. I am actually a fan of over-sexualization of both genders myself (provided all parties involved are adults), but it's got to be BOTH genders, because that's only fair. I'd want to see a man in nothing but a loincloth next to a fully armored woman as much as I want to see the reverse (which is not at all). Everyone should be fully armored or wearing nothing but pasties and thongs. :D

And I want to make one thing clear: boys, you literally have almost all of entertainment media directed at and made for you. This not an idle statement or an opinion, it is an actual fact. Transformers, GI Joe, almost every video game series, tv show, most books (especially science fiction), comics... If you do the math, you will find very few entertainment options for girls. My Little Pony and Sailor Moon are the exception (and can you name anything else that is that female friendly off the top of your head? Probably not).

In asking for more girl Skylanders, we are not saying you can't play with this franchise anymore. We are not taking it away from you. Like we all learned in kindergarten, we asking you to be nice and share. Girls wind up sharing their media with you (just look at what's happened to My Little Pony) and we'd like the same in return.
Hexin_Wishes Yellow Sparx Gems: 1522
#74 Posted: 23:31:03 28/04/2014
RE: MLP:FiM fans, my issue with "Bronies" is the fact they started out ironically and then transformed into fetishists. There were very few self proclaimed "Bronies" who are genuinely into it and not sexualizing characters from a kid's show.

Are there non-creepy male fans, of course there are! But the Bronies have made themselves way too known.
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#75 Posted: 23:37:57 28/04/2014
Oh, believe me, I can go on about bronies. D: I've had tons of negative personal experience with them and they way they've made it still seem so bad for MLP to be a "girls" show is disgusting (but not the least of their problems). But that is way OT and we'd have to take it to PMs if you really wanted any details. Bronies co-opting MLP was just the first example of men taking women's media and making it about them that came to mind (and I've never seen it happen in reverse to that degree; slash fanfiction doesn't count since it has little/no impact on the producing companies nor does it get media attention like men proudly being into something "girly" does).
ZapNorris Ripto Gems: 5109
#76 Posted: 23:47:27 28/04/2014
so you guys either want-

more females

or a beefy female with no sexual features

OR a "not pretty" female
Earth-Dragon Blue Sparx Gems: 972
#77 Posted: 23:51:12 28/04/2014
Quote: Razz
^ Yes, all of that. I am actually a fan of over-sexualization of both genders myself (provided all parties involved are adults), but it's got to be BOTH genders, because that's only fair. I'd want to see a man in nothing but a loincloth next to a fully armored woman as much as I want to see the reverse (which is not at all). Everyone should be fully armored or wearing nothing but pasties and thongs. smilie

And I want to make one thing clear: boys, you literally have almost all of entertainment media directed at and made for you. This not an idle statement or an opinion, it is an actual fact. Transformers, GI Joe, almost every video game series, tv show, most books (especially science fiction), comics... If you do the math, you will find very few entertainment options for girls. My Little Pony and Sailor Moon are the exception (and can you name anything else that is that female friendly off the top of your head? Probably not).

In asking for more girl Skylanders, we are not saying you can't play with this franchise anymore. We are not taking it away from you. Like we all learned in kindergarten, we asking you to be nice and share. Girls wind up sharing their media with you (just look at what's happened to My Little Pony) and we'd like the same in return.


Still an opinion not fact. It's only fact in your mind.

Reality TV, dramas, soaps, targets women
More magazines target women to include tabloids and fashion mags
Social media has become increasingly lopsided to the female sideas to who they are targeting

You ignore the fact that more of the human looking characters are, in fact, female. Would it change anything if Sunburn, Prism Break, Zap, or Camo were females (heck I thought two on that list were)? No. They look like beast. Of you don't like playing them because you find out they sound like a male, that is a sign of sexist behavior on your part. I don't have any gripes of playing whirlwind chatting it up like a female. Nor do I have any issues playing the larger ranks of elf/human/dwarf lookin toons that are clearly female versus only the couple who are clearly male.

Asking for a couple more female toons is one thing. Using this a political platform to act like a victim of social bias is silly, uncalled for, and a bit ignorant.
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Glad heroic challenges are gone. Imagine doing 165 per skylander. That's 27225 challenges. No thank you.
UncleBob Ripto Gems: 4565
#78 Posted: 23:57:25 28/04/2014
Quote: Earth-Dragon
Bottomline you are making excuses. You said it was dominated by males, I showed you an all-female team.


Dude - one comic, barely over a year old, with a focus on a female team doesn't negate 50 years of male-dominated comics, books, movies and cartoons.

But, to the second point - the oversexualization of characters in entertainment isn't something limited to male-orientated titles. Romance novels - which is a huge industry with a large majority female readership - is dominated by stuff way worse than what's in mainstream comics... and I'm not just talking 50 Shades stuff.
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#79 Posted: 00:05:57 29/04/2014
You mentioned three things that are constantly seen as bad and negative by society at large as being made for women (two, actually: soap opera and "dramas" are the same thing). And reality tv is not made for women, it's made to pander to the American audience period. That's still a drop in the bucket when compared with: the entire rest of television, most books, almost all video games, almost all comics, most of radio, the other half of magazines made for men...and on and on and on...

Where are you getting these assumptions from, Earth Dragon? XD Stop invalidating yourself by jumping to conclusions, please. XD No one here is saying we don't like the male characters or aren't playing them because they're boys, dang bro. *eye roll* XD Prism Break and Eruptor are among my favorite characters, in fact. And the whole "political platform/victim/blah blah" angle you're making up is a point you can stop bringing up because it is not what anyone is doing in this thread. If you're not going to say anything constructive or actually address what I'm really saying, I'm not going to bother responding to you. (Also, I note that you are only talking to me and completely ignoring folks like Hexin_Wishes who are saying what I'm saying only better and dismantling your arguments before you make them. Who's being silly, now?)

Quote:
so you guys either want-

more females

or a beefy female with no sexual features

OR a "not pretty" female


No. We want all of those things and also to keep the more feminine characters that are currently in the games. We want the kind of variety the boy characters have.

(I need a clip from that "Humancentipad" episode of South Park here, the one where Steve Jobs is yelling, "WHY WON'T IT READ?!". XD)
Earth-Dragon Blue Sparx Gems: 972
#80 Posted: 00:07:30 29/04/2014
Quote: UncleBob
Quote: Earth-Dragon
Bottomline you are making excuses. You said it was dominated by males, I showed you an all-female team.


Dude - one comic, barely over a year old, with a focus on a female team doesn't negate 50 years of male-dominated comics, books, movies and cartoons.

But, to the second point - the oversexualization of characters in entertainment isn't something limited to male-orientated titles. Romance novels - which is a huge industry with a large majority female readership - is dominated by stuff way worse than what's in mainstream comics... and I'm not just talking 50 Shades stuff.


Dude - the point is you can't complain how things are when things are starting to flip the script and heading in the other direction. That's call ignorance. There wasn't a "cool guess things are getting better" instead it's a rant of how bad things "were" and "have been". No acknowledgement of improvement. No acknowledgement that the script was flip.
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Glad heroic challenges are gone. Imagine doing 165 per skylander. That's 27225 challenges. No thank you.
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#81 Posted: 00:19:24 29/04/2014
Haha, nooooo. The script is not being flipped at all, my friend. I'm going to take a page from your book and assume you are an entitled, white, young man living at home (your responses certainly indicate this) and inform you that women in most states in the US are still told to not report sexual harassment, cannot get birth control, are denied abortions even if pregnancy is life-threatening or they were raped, most abusers in bad relationships are still men and most of the murder victims in these relationships are still women, a male congressman still thinks it's not rape if a woman doesn't get pregnant, we still haven't had a female president, "do x like a girl" is still an insult, women are still paid less than men for doing the same work, women have been harassed out of the games industry (Jennifer Hepler) while men who do the same behavior that got their female counterparts kicked out are applauded, men can say whatever they want about a topic while women get verbally assaulted and threatened for the same thing (Anita Sarkeesian)... I can go on ad nausium. This is a list without end. If you're not going to do actual research and be a part of this discussion like a rational adult, please stop being a part of it. You're really only proving the points most of us have been making.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 00:37:52 29/04/2014 by Razz
melvimbe Yellow Sparx Gems: 1327
#82 Posted: 01:12:57 29/04/2014
Quote: Razz

Quote:
Men tend to have a higher expectation to provide for the family, have very little say in reproductive rights, rarely are the recipients of child support/alimony payments, etc etc.


This is sort of comparing apples to carrots.


No it's not. It's the other side of the coin. Men and Women are not equal on these issues, the same as the issues you have.

Quote: Razz

Whether men are expected to provide for their families or not, they are still making $1 to every $0.75 earned by a woman.


And that is very misleading statistic as it does not represent equal pay for equal work. It is true, but it's aggregating all jobs, and women tend to chose lower paying careers then men. Equal pay for equal work is somewhere around .95 or something like that.

Quote: Razz

All of the current laws on the books for reproductive rights were written by men (and many of these laws take safety and personal agency away from women).


I don't see why it matters who wrote the law. It's still unequal (and I'm ok with that).

Quote: Razz

Men are rarely the recipients of child support payments because they rarely take on the care of their children. I'll give you the alimony thing but, again, most divorces like this involve children and the mother getting rights to care for those children and, thus, needing more money to do that effectively.



Even at equal custody, the father will often have to pay. It most cases it really is best for the children I think. But it is not equal. I honestly don't want to see it differently.

Quote: Razz

If a system is broken, why keep using it?


Because I don't think change should be taken lightly, and in may ways we are better off as we are. Because often times people want to blame their issues on an external cause when they are the problem themselves. There are often unintended consequences that we aren't prepared for.

Quote: Razz

The current system does a disservice to both men and women. This is something we can change (and if you look at history, you will find examples of many societies which treated the sexes more equally and fairly than we do now; ancient Egypt, Rome, the middle ages in Europe, many Native American societies...). I am not a fan of "stop complaining and deal with it"; that's the attitude that digs the hole deeper. Problems don't just go away and nobody should have to live with something that is dehumanizing or so unfair that children can be bothered by it.


There are things that are dehumanizing. No doubt. I don't think Skylanders is one of them, and a element of 'deal with it' is appropriate I think. And I'm sure you've studied the societies you mentioned more then I have, but I find it interesting that I think of slavery and disease with those societies, except native american...then it's virgin sacrifice.

Quote: Razz

I'm disabled and I do what I can to adapt to the world around me. But y'know what? Sometimes that is just not possible and, in order for me to have the same opportunities that everyone else has, society at large needs to make concessions. Because other disabled people stood up and said they were sick of things like working in sweat shops for little/no pay, we have laws like the Americans with Disabilities Act in place. The same sort of fight is going on right now with gender equality, but it's been going on a lot longer and we're not where we could be with it (especially since our ancient ancestors can do it better in many regards; that's just sad).


I don't really think anybody wants laws regarding equal gender representations in gaming. Yes, it will change in time and I'm sure you're making a small difference in that. I'm just not all on board that all the changes that are hot topics these days are really going to be as great as the popular opinion thinks.
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#83 Posted: 01:22:05 29/04/2014
Quote:
I don't see why it matters who wrote the law. It's still unequal (and I'm ok with that).


I can't read anything else you have to say because that's a really disgusting sentiment to have and it's nuked all credibility you had with me. D: That statement is basically, "I'm fine with other people having crappy lives as long as it doesn't affect me. No need to help others regardless of how much future benefit it does to me as long as I'm okay in the short term. :)" D:

I'm guessing your okay with the inequality because it's benefiting you (as in: you are a male, probably white, probably young). Good lord, I feel bad for you, you're potential children, and any disadvantaged minority groups in the area you live and vote in. D:
Edited 3 times - Last edited at 01:28:48 29/04/2014 by Razz
Earth-Dragon Blue Sparx Gems: 972
#84 Posted: 01:34:42 29/04/2014
Quote: Razz
Haha, nooooo. The script is not being flipped at all, my friend. I'm going to take a page from your book and assume you are an entitled, white, young man living at home (your responses certainly indicate this) and inform you that women in most states in the US are still told to not report sexual harassment, cannot get birth control, are denied abortions even if pregnancy is life-threatening or they were raped, most abusers in bad relationships are still men and most of the murder victims in these relationships are still women, a male congressman still thinks it's not rape if a woman doesn't get pregnant, we still haven't had a female president, "do x like a girl" is still an insult, women are still paid less than men for doing the same work, women have been harassed out of the games industry (Jennifer Hepler) while men who do the same behavior that got their female counterparts kicked out are applauded, men can say whatever they want about a topic while women get verbally assaulted and threatened for the same thing (Anita Sarkeesian)... I can go on ad nausium. This is a list without end. If you're not going to do actual research and be a part of this discussion like a rational adult, please stop being a part of it. You're really only proving the points most of us have been making.


Nope. Hard-working, military man, black, earn everything that I've ever gotten, never asked anyone for a handout or a benefit.

Try again. Ignorant. So ignorant. Again you can't acknowledge that in that ONE instance things were flipped.
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Glad heroic challenges are gone. Imagine doing 165 per skylander. That's 27225 challenges. No thank you.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 01:43:40 29/04/2014 by Earth-Dragon
hardcoreignitor Gold Sparx Gems: 2583
#85 Posted: 01:38:37 29/04/2014
Listen, I see all of your points. Yàll are absolutely right in every way. Now, I`m all for equality, but....

The Skylander head honchos: Activison, Toys for Bob, Vicarious Visions, Beenox, all of those guys couldn`t give less of a crap about what you or girls or feminists or equalists want. They care about what their target audience wants (in this case 6 to 12 year old boys) and as sad as that is, it just doesn`t seem to match up with any of this. When I was smaller, in Super Smash Bros Brawl I always opted for the male characters because they appealed to me. Same goes with kids now, They`ll wanna buy Snap Shot (The blue crocodile) because he`s a guy. That`s pretty much their only criteria, and it`s why Kirby is still a thing, because even though he is pink, he`s a boy, and boys wanna play as boys. First Rule of marketing: Appeal to your audience first and foremost, then secondary targets. That`s why it;s not all male.

So in short, lil boys wanna play as boys and acti will keep making boy skylanders with a few girls here and there to appeal to you guys.
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nyeheheheheh

hey lois, i’m dustah from mudda 3
shadowfox Platinum Sparx Gems: 5051
#86 Posted: 01:38:45 29/04/2014
Its okay the law is unequal..........and being okay with that


Thats the worst thing for society to do acknowledge a problem and shove it under the carpet.
When in life has a problem gone away by ignoring it
Razz Platinum Sparx Gems: 5971
#87 Posted: 01:39:45 29/04/2014
I said I was taking a page from your book and making a gross generalization and assumption about you (and name calling, though not to the level you keep taking it). :D But, really, I'd figure you'd want to make society better given that you, also, are a member of a minority group. I am disappoint.

Anyway, it's obvious that we're not going to see eye-to-eye, ever, so I'm done talking to you and you can be done talking to me and we shall go on forever thinking of each other as ignorant, stuck-up jerks. :) I'll leave your posts to other folks who want to talk to you; I'm sick of repeating myself ad nauseum here. :)

ON TOPIC: I still want more Skyladies. Everything else aside, it'd just be cool and fun and interesting and an actual innovation in gaming. :)
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 01:43:55 29/04/2014 by Razz
tigerdr Yellow Sparx Gems: 1976
#88 Posted: 03:35:48 29/04/2014
Quote: wideawakewesley
Quote: Razz
It wouldn't make you a poor parent for not being able to do anything for your daughters against the overwhelming social pressure from media that puts male characters in varied, unique, dominant, powerful roles while keeping most female characters in a minority role and conventionally attractive even when they are presented otherwise more fairly. I can't speak for anyone else, but cartoons and fiction meant a lot to me as a kid and not being represented at all did have a negative impact I am only now beginning to unravel (in my 30s).


This is a key point. Most women and men don't/won't even realise the effect societal views have on them until they are much older (if at all). My son is 7 and my daughter is 4 and I've already started to try and fight against the marketing, peer pressure etc. For example, I was recently given a copy of the My Little Pony CCG, which I was told is a really fun game. My son really enjoys CCGs, but when I asked if he would play My Little Pony with me, his immediate reaction was no. When I dug a little deeper, there was no rational reason for him not wanting to play it, he wasn't even prepared to give it a go to see if it was fun. It was a game for girls and thus, he shouldn't play it (even though his Dad was wanting to play it). This coming from a boy I've done my damnedest to make believe everything is for everyone. Unfortunately our children don't spend the majority of their time with their parents, they spend it with other children at school who's views are more along societal lines.


Not everything has to be for everyone, and in this case in point I'd seriously side with your son on it. The whole MLP thing got bigger than the 80s version for sure with the whole brony crap and everything else and the show is horrible. I can think of a hundred reasons why not to play that game. There are some things that are geared to a certain gender and even though society wants people not to have their feelings hurt these days and we should look at everything, we don't have to enjoy everything either Some things are just not made equal in that regard. smilie

As for the topic, I recall when some were disappointed from giants when the characters were given voices and some were crushed for example when zap was found to be a boy and some pictured him as a girl. I feel in this case for those that aren't geared exactly by gender it should be offered on a voice actor for the character to be a boy or a girl. It paints a more realistic scheme of things where not every character is a guy and i like the fact of things more fleshed out as such. I enjoy having female skylanders since there is more variation that way. Case in point from giants my favorite skylander was jade flashwing, followed by polar whirlwind, pop fizz. Where as bash, zap and sonic boom, dino rang made up the ssa ones i liked. Scratch and quickdraw for ssf easy for faves and i'll look at more later to see which ones i like there.

The point is in all the characters they make, yes there will be more boys to attract to as they do play games more by ratio, but it's not a bad thing to have more females in it and i do see the point of what was being made about the MLP game that everything is not just about one gender and it can be enjoyed by all and why you want him to experience it. It doesn't mean it settles right to look at and would be enjoyable to do so. Some stuff just really stretches that into too girly for a guy.

Quote: oogamania
Girls, just be glad that these guys aren’t over sexualizing these females as they do with sooo many video game heroines.


It really depends what communities you visit because I got stories....and there's not enough mind bleach trust me. Just stay here where it's safe really.

Quote: Hexin_Wishes
RE: MLP:FiM fans, my issue with "Bronies" is the fact they started out ironically and then transformed into fetishists. There were very few self proclaimed "Bronies" who are genuinely into it and not sexualizing characters from a kid's show.

Are there non-creepy male fans, of course there are! But the Bronies have made themselves way too known.


Exactly, but it happens with everything even from this discussion. I think the internet kind of fueled that type of way with people in connecting with more that like certain degrees of things. Therefore you get those ways people like things more than what they were attended. I've watched MLP once or twice and it was entertaining, but it didn't make me want to be a pony or dance around the place, or do other stuff. I'd rather not talk more of that show bleh.
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Taking that last ride through the sunset on skylanders. Hopefully a return of more classic spyro gameplay in the horizon.
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 03:44:37 29/04/2014 by tigerdr
Gnarly Dune Green Sparx Gems: 125
#89 Posted: 21:51:34 29/04/2014
3rd World problems- Not having enough food to sustain life.
1st World problems- Not having enough female Skylanders.

A matter of perspective. -Just saying
trapshadow77 Blue Sparx Gems: 520
#90 Posted: 23:38:06 29/04/2014
Quote: Gnarly Dune
3rd World problems- Not having enough food to sustain life.
1st World problems- Not having enough female Skylanders.

A matter of perspective. -Just saying

Thank you! I don't mean to be rude but compared to many other games, skylanders did nothing wrong. In the other topic about this, even Razz said she said all that she needed to say and that it wasn't even her biggest problem with skylanders. We had dropped the topic because we said all we needed to say. Razz has already made a lot of very good points. By continuing on with this topic, all you are doing is restating those points we already cleared up. Everybody has already made their arguments. You basically are making something microscopic into a giant problem. Can we please drop the topic? I apologize if by any chance I may have offended anyone.
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smilie"I think someone forgot to invite me to become a Trap Master."smilie
melvimbe Yellow Sparx Gems: 1327
#91 Posted: 23:43:15 29/04/2014
Quote: Razz
Quote:
I don't see why it matters who wrote the law. It's still unequal (and I'm ok with that).


I can't read anything else you have to say because that's a really disgusting sentiment to have and it's nuked all credibility you had with me. D: That statement is basically, "I'm fine with other people having crappy lives as long as it doesn't affect me. No need to help others regardless of how much future benefit it does to me as long as I'm okay in the short term. smilie" D:


Not even close, so I can only assume I haven't communicated clearly. In the context of reproductive rights, I don't see why it matters who wrote the law. It is not equal in terms of a Father's rights for the unborn child versus the Mother's. A father pretty much has no say. It is not equal. I am ok with that. I don't see how it could be equal. I do feel for the Father's who have to deal with this. I do feel for the mother's who have feel they have to make a decision. My response had nothing to do with the aspect of laws regarding the mother's health. I honestly don't know the details of the law in the regard and don't wish to comment on that. And I realize I didn't make that clear previously.

Quote: Razz
I'm guessing your okay with the inequality because it's benefiting you (as in: you are a male, probably white, probably young). Good lord, I feel bad for you, you're potential children, and any disadvantaged minority groups in the area you live and vote in. D:


I get the emotional response based on what you thought I was saying, and it's my fault for not being more clear. I don't get the assumption that I'm good with ALL inequality. I don't get the stereotyping of my race. I resent the statement that you feel bad for my children. That crosses the line with me.
UncleBob Ripto Gems: 4565
#92 Posted: 23:47:50 29/04/2014
Quote: Gnarly Dune
3rd World problems- Not having enough food to sustain life.
1st World problems- Not having enough female Skylanders.

A matter of perspective. -Just saying


You're right - it's just a matter of perspective.

Like someone thinking that the only issue here is female representation in a singular toy line. smilie
Bifrost Diamond Sparx Gems: 8858
#93 Posted: 00:51:20 30/04/2014
I avoid one controversial topic for a bit and it goes downhill this fast? No wonder discussing everything with some people here is asking for a flame war.
Lemme put both sides of the issue and try to make this a little less nitpicky and name calling. It's obviously that Razz's point isn't turning this into a feminist paradise of a franchise - I agree with her, we have way too little female characters and the ones we have are the same kind of busty thin female or a non-humanoid, which isn't cool when you have so many character designs for guys. You guys don't need to push into her face that the world is like that and she can't ask for anything better, that's rude, and makes this forum look like some dumb reddit drama that you see every day there.
On the other hand, there's the mentality about toys that's ingrained in games industry as much as toy industry - if it's action, it's for boys. A lot of the devs probably grew up designing stuff for boys most of the time, and Acti, being your usual game company which is usually full to the brim with elitist guys who feel like girls shouldn't touch a controller unless it's on a Wii, probably influences them a lot on that. Maybe we'll get a good balance between female-oriented characters, male-oriented characters and characters oriented to both one day, but the problem is more with the industry as a whole than just the developers - everyone is afraid of getting out of the norm at the cost of some millions in sales. It'll take either a lot of courage from TFB/VV/Beenox or a lot of time for people's mindsets to at least try to appeal to more genders.

Just my two cents, but this thread is looking more like an internet fight than a discussion, and that's no good.

(also here we go with MLP fans = Bronies argument again. Sure I'm a girl but I get why a boy would want to watch such a refreshingly polished show like that,even if it's nothing new. Just because it's weird to your ideology doesn't mean every dude that likes ponies is some insane fetishist, though I can't say I do like the ones that do that and feel the need to bring that up every time, that's obnoxious in every fandom, no exceptions)
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All-tempting draught. We'll drink of her again.
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