darkSpyro

How do you feel about lolis. Real opinions only

bad. it’s bad

I'm so desensitised to every weird anime trope at this point that I don't care tbh. I just don't think media should be banned/censored.

your about to get an essay from me on this my end result is i do not like it whatsoever but i will be more detailed soon

okay so what is the definition of "loli"

from wikianyonecaneditthisepidia

"A young or young-looking girl character in Japanese anime and manga"

so to start with explaining my problem i have to point out that the main target for Loli characters are men you rarely ever get Loli characters in girl-targeted anime and manga because i think for the most part Loli characters are meant to appeal to certain viewers who are into that kind of thing and that in itself is kind of the essence of what my problem with it is. i would normally be able to say well whatever its what the character looks like blah blah but the point is often to purposefully attract that kind of attention to the character.

when i was too young to understand that seeing loli characters like say the ones who look 12 but are really 120 was just a funny joke to me like "haha they look like a little kid like me but theyre really old funny funny" when i was old enough to get it for me before i reached 2 digits it started to feel weird to me because of how they would be displayed or fanservice related to those kinds of characters. it felt off to me without needing to be fully explained what exactly about it felt off to me

so i do always like to point this out

there are and their absolutely are people in real life who look way younger than they really are or look way older than they really are these are simply called... genes... they exist and to say that someone shouldnt be attracted to say a 22 year old who maybe doesnt look quite 22 to me is harsh.

when i was in highschool i have said this before i was tall but flat-chested and i looked fairly young in the face by the time i was 20 i had people still thinking i was maybe 15 by 21 i had to very promptly prove my identity before buying cigarettes and alochol and got unrightfully yelled at for being some kid trying to get a nicotine fix with a fake id if you saw me now i dont look that different... my face has matured but i look early 20s at best

so with that in mind is someone being into an actual adult or thinking theyre pretty but theyre looks falling more into the stereotypical look of a "younger person" bad? should they not be? shoudl i loook and be able to fully pass as an adult before someone is allowed to be into me despite the fact that im 24 and have my own apartment and life now... well i dont know... why are they attracted to that person

lets ask this

what is attractive about that younger person to you?

if the answer is the fact that they look younger or childlike now to me we have a problem this is difficult to explain with my previous point so bare with me

if the person is generally attracted to the loli-look that to me is a red flag of what could be a much bigger problem if theyre attracted to the younger-looking person for other reasons like personality being a good match up for them or yes their physical appearance too that is unique to them and not a general sense of you look like a kid so i like you and is unique only to that person then that to me seems more like a benuine attraction to a person not to a childlike or lol kind of appearance

part of the problem other than the listed above that i have when people say if they look like a kid or younger than they really are then you should not like them be into them or whatever is that this can actually work against you and the point because then a real psycho can argue that those younger people who mature very quickly the opposite of people like me you can have a 15 year old who looks like theyre 20 and that would then do what...? that would give them the right to be attracted to that person right? and thats not okay to me this is very very bad and messed up.

so physical appearance has to be handled very gently because it absolutely cannot be the only factor at play or t can do just as much harm as it does good.

let me point out this example of an anime where the fans and the haters annoyed me



so here we have a very young looking character but she obviously has some mature features about her

people cried out "oh this is creepy shes a Loli but looks like that"

which to me was messed up because

1.

shes not even a kid she is 19 at the start

2.

and again there are people with this look this body type this whatever they exist so to stereotype something as loli based soley on that no that doesnt work for me

to me the definition of loli is

"A young or young-looking girl character that is meant to attract or infatuate people who are into the loli-con culture or into younger-looking characters"

and that is to me inherently wrong and upsetting when the point is to display what looks like or is inf act a child in way meant to attract people to them this is not okay

also please note i dropped the "anime and manga" part

why?

because this isnt something unique to japanese culture not at all but people sure love to deflect to it and stereotype anime and japanese as somehow inherently perverted toward children

America does it in media a lot very much as do many other cultures media it is a problem that exists throughout the world not unique to just anime or japanese

like what is the conclusion then is loli okay or is it bad

BAD

because i view loli as a purposefully done targeted subculture at meant tto attract very creepy honestly creepy for real kind of people

this to me doesnt say that actual adults who look younger should be considered loli but i also dislike the whole haha im actually 200 years old trope becuase its used as an excuse to justify it i mean it more in the sense of real life than in media because in media it is almost if not always played as that kind of a trope

lolita

the whole word it can also refer to the style of lolita which is okay its a more old timey gothic style like this below



which i presume is not what you meant but that is mostly centric old like 17-18th century gothic style mixed in with kawaii culture at times it also extends into musical genres that often adapt baroque style music and classical sounds

THIS WAS TOO LONG YOU DID NOT READ

i think the concept of loli is bad and it is something that should go away and i immediately want no part of anyone who is into loli maybe that is too much of me but i cannot mentally deal with that unknowingly if that person is or is not a freak to be honest this is not to dismiss the authenticity of and mainly adult-women who look on the younger side myself included in there at one point from being women who are adults and have the right to be treated as and accepted as just that

Quote: Vespi

bad. it’s bad

yes

Quote: skylandersfan60

I'm so desensitised to every weird anime trope at this point that I don't care tbh. I just don't think media should be banned/censored.

i think is almost worth is on essay or topic or whatever on the thought of media censorship which i am in fact normally against i think people should have the right to curate and decide what kind of content they want to consume on their on i would say that for me the problem is specifically problematic content which loli might fall under as well as other very sensitive topic matter that is distributed frequently as something for someone to be attracted to and enjoy in that way i just dont see how that kind of content does any good for people otehr than encourage the creepy people otherwise i dont think no media should be as censored as it often is becase people should have the right to choose that

You're becoming the new Lindsay Ellis with these essays, and I mean that entirely positvely, you lay out your points in a very organized way

Myself, I like lolita fashion and I wish it wasn't two letters away from getting gross

Quote: Bifrost

You're becoming the new Lindsay Ellis with these essays, and I mean that entirely positvely, you lay out your points in a very organized way

Myself, I like lolita fashion and I wish it wasn't two letters away from getting gross

wow that comment means more to me than you know bifrost in part because of me being really self conscious about everything i put out there being incoherent gibberish so to get that comment for real thank you

lolita fashion is very cool i like when it crosses into music too

gonna drop a fav

kanon wakeshima











and in fact i will count that as on topic to describe the difference between when you will hear people talk about loli versus when you hear people say they are into lolita fashion/music

Quote: LeewweewoowheeH

people like younger people not because they look like children but because looking younger means looking more youthful which is why a lot of celebs get surgery to look as young as possible. but there's a big difference between looking like a 17 year old and looking like an 11 year old. girls usually stop developing around the 15-17 age and start to show aging around the 30s. This period of a youthful appearance is what people usually find attractive. asian culture has this weird thing tho with acting or looking childish. this video is a really good explanation on the subject. i also just recommend the video in general and the youtube channel.

i think the reason why lolis are more focused with being more problematic in western culture is because America usually sexualizes teenagers with actors being from ages 15-30s giving this weird expectation of teens to look like 6 pack abs freddy from riverdale. however sexualizing children who are below 12 is mostly relevant in Japanese anime which is increasingly getting more and more popular within western culture. the only show that can come to mind about sexualizing children as young as most loli characters is the netflix show cuties and beauty pageants. however, most of the people complaining about anime lolis probably don't watch those types of media which is why they don't get as focused on the internet.

even the lolita aesthetic is very childish at nature although being a cute look rather than sexual. the term lolita originates from the russian novel lolita which is about a dude grooming a child written from an unreliable narrators pov. however, in japan the term got mixed with cute and kawaii culture and is not sexual. lolicon tho comes from the book lolita complex which is about the condition of being attracted sexually to children and somehow the lolicon genre boomed in the 70s in japan and has been a controversial topic in the country since.

normal people yes the people i was talking about i dont like to use the actual words because they are problematic emotionally for me but i was talking about the kind of people who do in fact are attracted to them because they look like children those kind of people and its those kind of people who i think are into Loli.

let me correct just this "but there's a big difference between looking like a 17 year old and looking like an 11 year old." i would say but there's a big difference between looking like an average 17 year old and looking like an average 11 year old.

the reason why being a point i was really trying to drive home that there are all kinds of people with all kinds of genetics that mature and age differently. most girls start puberty before boys do and the average can be anywhere from 8 years old to 12/13 years old given that alone that can seriously affect where the onset of more mature physical features take place but in addition to that how quickly the individual goes through the different stages of puberty. i knew a girl who was 10 and she looked like an average 10 year old. she was older than me i was maybe 6? by the time this girl was 12 she had devloped most of the physical features of what you would typical ascribe to a 17 year old.



when i was i think 10 i had my period and by that time i started to get very tall by the time i was 12 i was almost 5'4" the average for a girl that age 4'7" i certainly towerd over other girls of my age yet... that was it other than my voice starting to change i didnt develop much of anything else other than the monthly attack on your peace of mind and body

so if you can ignore the height the 12 year old girl looked significantly older than me at the age of 12 i became more "women-like" by only the time i was 18 or so again otehr than height i was already full height by then for me so 5'7" i just mean to say averages depend a lot based on country ethnicity and just the individual puberty actually didnt finish up with me personally until like 20 i guess as a positive result i still look younger than the almost 30-year old i am now.



i do agree that the youthful look is what normal people are attracted to my concern is way more the not normal people

i dont know about the asian culture being so much worse with it though ill watch the video but their is so much media from america i could point at that does just as bad particular movies and film from the 70s 80s it could be problematic does anyone remember the calvin klein ads? again some of these like you say are teenagers but most people targeting japanese anime and culture with the accusation in fact are talking about teenagers in the general scope of anime as opposed to just about lolis. so theres in my eyes quite a lot in american media i should also note european media... that can get pretty bad actually the difference is it mostly isnt in cartoons in western culture which... is probably worse to me.

if that wasnt worded well i mean to say lolis are only targeted as much by westeners as any other kind of teenager in anime for just the general scope of "sexualizing underaged characters" and if we then use that logic western culture absolutely cannot escape that same critisism.

as far as fashion it actually entirely depends on which subculture of Lolita fashion your in if were talking Kawaii Lolita you get more "childish" looking but the purpose is to not be "childish" but to be "cute" now if childish is cute and thats the individuals interpretation than that it is again up to that said individual but the purpose of kawaii is to be cute.

i would not call any of the styles i posted above from the Wakeshima chidish in fact she is more into the gothic 17th/18th century lolita fashion sense so most of it is in fact based on victorian era clothing and fashion and really has no direct connection to either kawaii fashion or looking childish. i meanto say nothing about that look of lolita is any more childish than victorian era fashion did which was certainly not the point back then either

thank you for the video i will watch and thank you for the reply to my comment!

the fashion is still childish because it is called lolita. the word lolita originates from a book called lolita. lolita in Japanese is different from the English meaning because it is more positive as it is more about cute kawaii looks. gothic lolita is not a pure victorian goth look it's inspired by it. its like calling taco bell mexican food

i then disagree with you interpretation of the word childish and i am saying there are different subgenres of lolita fashion the above pictures if you looked at them do not contain any childish look it is literally just gothic e fused victorian clothing particularly pic 4 and 5 should be good examples to show my point and trust me i know exactly what lolita means in japanese more so than i do in english apparently and like i said it entirely completely depends on the individual nothing wakeshima for example does comes off particularly childish which is why people and japanese people particularly dont group in lolita fashion with lolis

okay let me try to respond in a different way i am going to completely toss out my interpret of lolita fashion and just go with yours regardless of the influence of child like style the main audience of lolita fashion is primarily female as opposed to loli being primarily male now i do not know much about western communities as most of my knowledge comes from japanese boards like 2chan or korean boards because i cant stand being involved deeply in american anime/japanese fan circles and i feel more comfortable in a japanese setting always have been but ive never seen japanese ask the difference or get confused about loli and lolita fashion the divide is pretty clear between the loli trope and the fashion scene of lolita loli fans are very into the child like look and the fact that they are in fact children or look like them meanwhile lolita fashion fans are adapted much more to adults dressing up as opposed to children which at best woukd go into age play stuff which is an entirely different barrel of monkeys that i absolutely do not think would be appropriate to delve any more into on this forum

my point though is that there is a difference between the two as childishness or being attracted to the child like look is not the main appeal of lolita fashion

thank you for a reasonable debate about the topic and please know i do respect your view on it and have no motivation and intention to change your mind on the matter i just want to share my thoughts too somePerson

Dude the look originates from the vague fashion of victorian era children. I'm not debating that it's for children or sexual. I'm not even trying to debate. Having a childish aesthetic with the goal to look cute. It has nothing to do with lolis in anime which is why this discussion makes no sense to have in a topic about lolis

i like quagsire

Quote: somePerson

Dude the look originates from the vague fashion of victorian era children. I'm not debating that it's for children or sexual. I'm not even trying to debate. Having a childish aesthetic with the goal to look cute. It has nothing to do with lolis in anime which is why this discussion makes no sense to have in a topic about lolis

I'd say it kind of makes sense why the topic of Lolita fashion correlates with the topic of Lolis. Both originate from Japan, and both names/concepts stem from the novel.

Lolis are called that way because it comes from the phrase "Lolita Complex," as lolis themselves were actually created by people's sexualization of shojo content and the demand for it. Which makes sense, as the entire point of Lolita is about Humbert's disgusting, perverted sexual desire for a 12 year-old.

Lolita fashion on the other hand actually does come straight from the novel, but not under any sexual context (like we've been discussing). The first Japanese translation of Lolita was made in the 50s, back when shojo referred to the premarital girl, and it still sort of is in the genre of anime/manga. It was the equivalent of how we view "maidens" back then. Since kawaii culture is such a big part in Japanese culture, a lot of women identified with Dolores for a very specific reason: "Humbert Humbert in the novel Lolita is dismayed and frustrated by Lolita’s ordinary teenage interests in popular culture (popular music, celebrities, bubble gum, soda fountains and so forth) which are very different to his own cultural interests." (Hinton 9)*1

Lots of women saw Dolores' behavior and basically said "Holy ****, I wanna be someone like that," especially since Japanese culture puts a lot of pressure on women to be what Humbert wants Dolores to be, which is a pretty, submissive maiden. It's why Lolita fashion is considered a fashion of rebellion, and it still is today. "For women Lolita fashion exists as a domain removed from the sphere of cis-male influence. Lolita has agency, feelings, and power. She is a reminder of a woman’s own precious childhood memories growing up as a girl." (Ngyuen & Mai)*2

It's pretty fascinating honestly, and it's cool that Lindsey brought it up in this kind of topic because it shows how the term "Lolita" has been interpreted in Japanese culture. Plus, if you bring up the morality of Lolis and use the meaning of the name as part of the evidence, then it's also important to bring up the other way the term is used in another important facet of modern Japanese culture.

Sources:
*1 - https://www-s3-live.kent.edu/s...ry-R-Hinton.pdf
*2 - https://www.theparisreview.org...lolita-fashion/

Both of these sources also talk about Lolis, because as discussed, you can't discuss one without discussing the other.

But uhhh to answer the question of the topic, Lolis are really bad and it's a genre that encourages the sexualization of children.

seal that post was great for real i love seeing lonng thought out posts and really educated ones like yours make it even better. this paragraph in specific very cool description

Lots of women saw Dolores' behavior and basically said "Holy ****, I wanna be someone like that," especially since Japanese culture puts a lot of pressure on women to be what Humbert wants Dolores to be, which is a pretty, submissive maiden. It's why Lolita fashion is considered a fashion of rebellion, and it still is today. "For women Lolita fashion exists as a domain removed from the sphere of cis-male influence. Lolita has agency, feelings, and power. She is a reminder of a woman’s own precious childhood memories growing up as a girl." (Ngyuen & Mai)*2

now theres a few points since we sem to have deep dived into this book by the creepy guy and its relation to lolita fashion culture so i would like to point to a few things

somePerson the reason i did not reply to any of your statements about the book "Lolita" in relation to Lolita fashion is because no one actually knows the complete origins to Lolita fashion and you seemingly keep directing it back to the book. that is in fact not really true

in the late 1970s and predominantly in the 1980s there was a popular fashion movement that was called 乙女 "Otome" or "maiden" which is what seal was touching on or also known at the tie as 乙女スタイル "Otome Style" or "Maiden Style." Now opposed to what your point has been somePerson the key words to this fashion sense originated as the following

girly

romantic

please note that childish or child-like is in fact not included in the fashion descriptors

to really get down to Lolita we need to also mention this


interationally called ナチュラル系 "Natural Kei" you can translate as "Natural Fashion" however that refers to something else in japan in japan it was known as ピンクハウスコード or you can say "PINK HOUSE" this is widely seen as the starting point

PINK HOUSE is a fashion company that at the same time as Otome Style was taking off began to release a similar fashion style that most people referred to at the time as Pink House Style now again the key terms here are the style was meant to be excessively "girly" those ribbons and frills and cute little trinkets were considered as "girly" not child-like and do note we still have not even reached the scope of being anywhere near the book Lolita.

these are seen by Lolitas in japan as the roots of Lolita fashion that is Otome Style which has fallen out of use because westerners kind of messed it up and Pink House Style which is predominantly what is used to refer to Otome Style as now.

the idea of Otome style is for the wearer to look "like a maiden" to be refined, lady-like, and girly. PINK HOUSE STYLE takes this further by adding super-girly aesthetic to the mix again we have to not not child-like but girly.

it should also be noted that these styles boomed in Harujuku as a street style in the 70s and 80s if you know where or what Harujuku is all about you know it was the hip place to don the latest fashion trends in Japan.

most japanese Lolitas have no idea what Petakovs book even is and it had no relationship to the development of Lolita fashion.

also to note while a doll-look is considered to be very prevalent in Lolita fashion a lot of lolitas actually dislike the reference and term. Wakeshima has a song called Still Doll and several other very feminist centered songs that are a sarcastic commentary on the objectification of women by men. and i love her work for this

it should be noted that the style was not adapted to and called 'Lolita" until the 1990s which is when it was adopted fully as a unique fashion set with extremely strict rules. to name one without a petticoat your style will often not be considered true lolita. there are requirements which could be things from headwear to certain accessories. but again the goal was to be "madien-like" not childish. what youre thinking of is probably the PINK HOUSE STYLEs overly girly pop aesthetic which can be interpreted as "childish" and when we delve into PINK HOUSE STYLE yes we can border that line but it should be noted PINK HOUSE STYLE does not fully wrap around the whole of lolita-fashion as both otome and PINK HOUSE had major influence on the fashion trend.

there are also all kinds of subgenres of Lolita theres classic, sweet, the aforementioned gothic and theres even a flip take on it which is boys-style which is what you see Wakeshim wearing in the second to last picture i posted

so if we are to talk about the origins inspirations and influence of Petakovs book "Lolita" on this subculture of the japanese fashion scene the result that turns up is there absolutely is none

now i cannot find the exact moment in time where Lolita was given as the name to the fashion but it happened in the late 1980s- early 1990ss very far removed from the book Lolita and the origins of the fashion sense are very abundantly clearly not inspired by the book but by earlier fashion sense that boomed the streets of harujuku and japanese fashion magazines in the 1970s and 80s that were in turn inspired by victorian era clothing and again not childrens victorian style clothing in fact the opposite by a very maiden-like approach to the style

the first reference i can find to Lolita being used to describe the suddenly trending fashion sense that was nameless at the time aside from Otome and PINK HOUSE STYLE is in the magazine "Ryukou Tsushin in the September 1987 issue"and it was being adopted then later by other japanese clothing brands

let me give an example

the fox bat

why is it called that? well it was named after its appearance being likened to that of a fox. does that mean that its origins are from the fox? well no of course not but someone picked the name because it reminded them personally of it and it was agreed upon this breed of bad would be known as the flying fox.

the same can and should be ascribed to Lolita fashion. now did the name "Lolita" come from the book? it should be noted that the book is simply the earliest representation of the word not de facto where we know it came from but the answer is probably yes but is that where Lolita fashion gets its roots and inspiration the answer is a very clear and evidenced prominently that it has no connection the answer is NO

now what probably happened with the name was that whoever the publisher who started it and it should be noted the influence of magazines and sudden trends will have on where things get their names from probably knew about the book and ascribed the fashion in their eyes as a likeness to the term from the book but the truth is we can never really know unless we talk to whoeever wrote the first article in it which i will be honest i am currently in the middle of trying to see if i can find some sort of contact information for that magazine so i can email them and possibly get further explanation this has made me really want to deep dive the term

so at the end of the day Lolita fashion has no connection to Lolis or Lolicon culture and it also doesnt have its roots in the book Lolita it was a name later attributed to the budding style that started solely in with the look of "maidens" in subgenres Otome Style and PINK HOUSE STYLE which in turn was inspired by victorian and rococo era madien-esque fashion

Idk if I should add a tw for this post with the thread subject but I talk about SA stuff.

Not gonna add anything to the lolita fashion discussion as it's pretty well covered. I ended up on some real sus websites actually looking into this and I'm definitely on a list somewhere. Also fun fact there's a fungal cream named lolicon.


So generally every core reply to this topic will be 'it's bad' or 'it's gross', finding loli gross is completely fair and I won't debate that at all, it's also completely understandable to want less of this content in anime, but I do want to know if it's something that can lead to real harm. A lot of the arguments against lolicon sound extremely similar to the video games cause violence debate, which is why I am skeptical that it has a significant real world impact. Immediately I think a lot of people would say they were different, one is meant for sexual arousal while the other is just for fun. The problem with that is does that mean other fetishes have real world impact?, if someone is into vore does that mean they would want to be a cannibal irl?. There's so much doujinshi focused on rape, guro, incst, etc, yet I see much less debate on whether that is normalizing those topics or any evidence that it does lead to normalization. Lolicon is extremely abstract in it's depiction, a typical character with the features presented in that kind of art has no real irl counterpart, it's more of a symbol. if you tried to bring your average cartoon character into the real world they would end up as an abomination.

As for actual research into this, pretty much any study will be from Denmark in the 60's or the source will be a BBC article, and these focus on irl porn. What we know from those 60's studies is that availability of porn decreases rape, though obviously this is pretty limited data. For more recent studies I looked into whether violent pornography causes abuse irl, opinion on this is pretty divided. There's some studies that say violent porn could potentially cause higher rates of dv in under 18's, but there's also studies that show those who are more open to pornography are less sexist. However when it comes to minors and watching porn, it's also important to note the dire state of sex education. There's a good precident for high quality sex education that talks about consent changing this as opposed to hopeless bans and restrictions. If anyone has any studies related to lolicon in particular then please link them. I looked through the other studies posted here but none of them have any data specifically on the effect of lolicon.

Quote: skylandersfan60

Idk if I should add a tw for this post with the thread subject but I talk about SA stuff.

Not gonna add anything to the lolita fashion discussion as it's pretty well covered. I ended up on some real sus websites actually looking into this and I'm definitely on a list somewhere. Also fun fact there's a fungal cream named lolicon.


So generally every core reply to this topic will be 'it's bad' or 'it's gross', finding loli gross is completely fair and I won't debate that at all, it's also completely understandable to want less of this content in anime, but I do want to know if it's something that can lead to real harm. A lot of the arguments against lolicon sound extremely similar to the video games cause violence debate, which is why I am skeptical that it has a significant real world impact. Immediately I think a lot of people would say they were different, one is meant for sexual arousal while the other is just for fun. The problem with that is does that mean other fetishes have real world impact?, if someone is into vore does that mean they would want to be a cannibal irl?. There's so much doujinshi focused on rape, guro, incst, etc, yet I see much less debate on whether that is normalizing those topics or any evidence that it does lead to normalization. Lolicon is extremely abstract in it's depiction, a typical character with the features presented in that kind of art has no real irl counterpart, it's more of a symbol. if you tried to bring your average cartoon character into the real world they would end up as an abomination.

As for actual research into this, pretty much any study will be from Denmark in the 60's or the source will be a BBC article, and these focus on irl porn. What we know from those 60's studies is that availability of porn decreases rape, though obviously this is pretty limited data. For more recent studies I looked into whether violent pornography causes abuse irl, opinion on this is pretty divided. There's some studies that say violent porn could potentially cause higher rates of dv in under 18's, but there's also studies that show those who are more open to pornography are less sexist. However when it comes to minors and watching porn, it's also important to note the dire state of sex education. There's a good precident for high quality sex education that talks about consent changing this as opposed to hopeless bans and restrictions. If anyone has any studies related to lolicon in particular then please link them. I looked through the other studies posted here but none of them have any data specifically on the effect of lolicon.

I feel pretty much the same about it sounding similar to the video game causes violence claim. To be completely honest if someone was a pedophile and kept it to themselves it really won't make much a difference unless you specifically know they are a pedo. I think the difference between a pedo and a monster is that one fondles kids. But the thing is the line isnt the hardest thing to cross so a lot of people want to prevent it from happening. This is why I think people are against pedos who enjoy loli stuff even if it's a fake child.

One of the most common arguments for loli media is that it normalizes sexualizing children and leads into touching kids. However there really isn't no real examples or evidence of this happening because the data simply does not really exist. But the idea of media normalizing crimes has always been a fear the public has because it covers dark topics that people would rather not think about. Plus data is of course gonna be super hard to find because you have to be convincted of certain crimes, maybe be diagnosed pedophilic disorder, and then have evidence of watching/owning loli media. It's quite a lot for such a small sample size. Using data is really baseless simply because it just doesn't exist.

Another common argument is that the person enjoying the media is watching a picture of a child. Even if the child is a drawing it's still has the identity of a child. (imo tho when it's an anime character who is 15-17 but can look like literally any other age I don't really care because the age could have been changed anytime the writer wanted to)

It's more of a morality thing rather than a crime thing because of this. They're not commiting a crime if they jerk off to lolis but they're still jerking off to the idea of a child being present. What makes this different from the video game argument tho is that killing in media has always been seen as cool and exhilarating. Like every movie has high paced action and gun fights because it causes adrenaline. Even in human history we enjoy violence and death. We love hearing about famous battles, people watch gladiators fight, we watch UFC fights, etc. However having a sexual attraction towards children has always been viewed as taboo. Pedophila in itself has always been a thing with Greek myths and people having sex minors in story's (although people died quite quickly so idk how age works in this scenario) and the term wasn't coined until the 19th century. And there was still a lot of misconceptions of what it is to this day still with the age of victims being up to ages like 17 and sometimes 18 makes people uncomfortable.

Like was there ever a movie where we were suppose to cheer for the pedo/groomer in the last few years? Yes actually. Pretty little liars a show where a teacher ended up grooming a high schooler in a way where I think the writers made it accidentally happen without realizing. However usually in media its always seen as cute or silly whenever a child has a crush on an adult. But when it's the other way around the pedo is made out to look like a greasy dude with pimples everywhere. Most people in the world do not have the fantasy of wanting to touch kids because it is in their nature not to while wanting to be in an action, war, fighting, scene is a common fantasy for people.

^im not trying to commetary about you are what i think about you by saying this and i am aware i am overly sensitive especially about certain topics but that post was legitimately terrifying for me to read i could not finish it so my reply to the last 2 posts in general will be a little broken

"However there really isn't no real examples or evidence of this happening because the data simply does not really exist
"

i will contribute to the data for you i had a personal encounter with a self proclaimed "lolicon" on an art group over a decade ago the guy pestered me trying to convince me to draw "loli" art for him for weeks i blocked him eventually because he couldnt take no for an answer and he kept coming back on different accounts in one case keeping up a conversation with me for a btit before i figured out it was the same person i myself at the time was not quite 18 yet and the guy made me feel incredibly uncomfortable it didnt take long for him to be banned from the group altogether after enough of this he was in fact asking for explicit art and trying to defend it as not being as bad as it could be which made no sense to me and i told him i was not okay with that he was an adult. 20-something on his profile. let me repeat he was contacting a teenage girl online to solicit explicit lolicon art from her to be done for him this experience was one of a few ironically that i was referring to with Vespi in confessions that contributed to ruining art for me i do not talk about it frequently but i am so bothered by seeing the defense of lolicons i feel it will do some good if i do i dont know probably not

that is the kind of people into lolicon

there is some data for you

these people are a dime a dozen it takes you about 2 minutes on the write art groups or chat boards to see them in motion

the comparison to the video games cause violence thing

nada. now in my personal experience i actually play against this because everyone i knew into excessively violent games or military games shooters games like DOOM were in fact very violent people in real life. i am not saying i believe video games case violence no just that i am the person who the surveys need to avoid because my experience tells me otherwise i dont think it reflects the whole of reality though what i do think it reflects is that violent video games attract people who already have a propensity to violence or who think about or want to commit violent acts

because people are attracted to what they like correct?

so what would that say about lolicon?

lets use the logic you presented here and disregard the concept entirely that lolicon can create those kinds of creepy people and predators. lets just say for this example it is entirely impossible.

who then is into lolicon? people who are already attracted to lolis and children

and therefore it attracts freaks and predators to it who congregate around a form of media that gets defended simply becaus its cartoons and like to shield themselves behind arguments like "the video game thing" or "theres no evidence it creates monsters" well lets say theres not there doesnt need to be because even if it doesnt create them it attracts them and encourages them and encourages the form of media that objectifies in a perverse manner children

i can assure you your example somePerson... which was... terrifying to me... of if they do what they do in private without hurting anyone then it affects no one else is not only somewhat of a horrific thing to say there is no real way to turn that into reality

where do they get there content from they likely arent just into lolicon but real things to and giving lolicon as a form of media to them is in fact encouraging them to continue and gives an alternative avenue for them to go down which if they werent already could possibly influence and lead them to take their actions into the real word and i am willing to bet everything i own and whats left of my ability to walk that a good majority of people into lolicon affected by the media itself or not will in fact harm others with their interest the kinds of people into lolicon are into it for a reason that cannot be ignored i am sorry

as for your comment skylandersfan60 on other kinds of "interests" being comparable i actually am highly against also the kinds of pornography that you listed and i also believe that all of those need to be abolished as well. i dont that much about the eating one but i can see that one not being as harmful because the world doesnt have a major problem with people trying to eat the other however the other ones you mentioned the world does in fact have a real problem with and the more industries play into that the more it will become socially acceptable and desensitized and i am all for removing those interests completely from what is legal to display in pornographic content that is for someones pleasure it is okay to me to touch on these things in a serious context in media but for someones pleasure and enjoyment in such a way to me is absolutely horrendous and it needs to be dealt with

particularly i do know that in any case of perverse related violence it is extremely objectifying of namely women and is a complete mockery insult and detraction of the serious harm and trauma that it causes victims and it should never ever ever be displayed as a means to entertain someone certainly not like that

legitimately getting upset typing this up so gonna stop for now

look the main audience of people into lolicon stuff is people who are attracted to them and therefore are attracted to children in some shape or form which is wrong which is not okay and if you can somehow find a way to defend that then you can go right ahead but as it stands at the moment i am very happy that lolicons are generally frowned upon and i hopether is an end in sight to these kind of harmful and obscene media it is not okay

the best way i can sum that up is the way others in this topic already have

lolicon is bad

DONT DO IT

Dude I mean this in the least offensive way possible. Stop reading or posting in this topic. You clearly have way too much of a connection to the topic where it physically harms you when there is something you disagree with. Im not even defending lolicon media in my post. You seem to have a dislike towards me and even when my posts are restating what you say you still seem to get offensive over it. Or in fact everything I posr you seem to always have to disagree on simply because I'm the one posting. I don't mean to attack your character but if you don't agree with someone's opinion online the best way to deal with it is to think to yourself "if I say this will this change their mind" of the answer is no don't say it.

I'm not trying to defend pedophila in my post at all. I didn't say there was no evidence that pedos like loli media. Like it's very obvious that people who are sexually attracted to kids watch videos of kids. Im saying the number of people who have physically harmed kids and also have been linked to watching loli media leading into it isnt a thing you can just look up because no study really goes into this specific statistic.

But if you are physically getting discomfort from a subject you don't like stop talking about it. There is literally no reason for someone to be physically exhausted from reading a topic.

you read way too much into the things i say and you cannot handle someone particularly someone like me disagreeing with you and you like to project the harm it does on you onto the other person that is my thought on you i have no particular dislike of you inf ct i have outwardly stated publicly multiple times i would like to make peace with you whatever your problem with me is i can get past that but you continue to make sarcastic or hurtful remarks toward me this has been a thing for most of the year i can gather the interactions if you want in this very topic i tried multiple times to let you know i was not targeting you with my comments or trying to make a commentary on what i think about you i only literally replied to the exact words you said and in my opinion yes you are defending llcion culture when you say things like "it doesnt harm anyone if they arent doing this stuff to real people" i have also in fact agreed with you on multiple posts and topics you have made if you want again i gather up the posts for you to look over

ill post on whatever topic i want to dont worry about it if i have a thought to share im going to share it let me worry about me in this topic i made very clear points and i was in fact technically right on the lolita fashion issue and i believe myself to be right on the lolicon issue as well

i will say again i have no personal issue with you i do not know you not beyond what i read from you here you could be a really nice guy in reality i do not know the judgy one seems to be you because you ascribe all kinds of emotions and mindsets to me when in fact you as well do not know me very well certainly nowhere near enough to know where my head is at when i make posts on this site

hey guys let’s talk about quagsire that cool that’s fun that’s hip

you edited your post while i replied

I don't mean to attack your character but if you don't agree with someone's opinion online the best way to deal with it is to think to yourself "if I say this will this change their mind" of the answer is no don't say it.

i have every right to state my disagreement with someone elses opinion that to me sounds like a shield so that you dont have to hear someone disagree with you somePerson it is called a debate i happen to like them if you dont then you dont have to reply to me thats it

i mean we can talk about quagsire if you want instead i guess

i just want ppl to stop fighting

i mean we aint gotta fight if somePerson wants to make peace with me i will make peace with him if i have offended him in any way i will apologize if he is okay to do the same i mean i like to debate stuff and you cant really do that if the other person agrees with you and before things seemingly got personal i thought he was a good person to debate stuff with because he put effort into his posts and not just memes i am all for not fighting and fighting gives me anxiety i will do whatever my part needs to be within reason in making whatever is wrong right and to stop any fight

I don't ever mean to try to cause harm or try to in any way shape or form with my posts. Ive been told multiple times in the past by both users and in real life that the way I speak and word both my actual speech and posts as very sarcastic and blunt which is why a lot of people seem to think I'm attacking them.
If you ever think my posts are attacking there's a good chance I made a typo, misread, or I just couldn't word outy post correctly. I made this topic as a half jokey and half serious discussion. If you're not having fun in any of my topics or reading i recommend just ignoring me and moving on

Ninja'd here but I don't think somePerson meant any harm he just has a very blunt way of speaking. I do think he is right in that the topic subject may be too personal for you. Though this is understandable as it is a sensitive topic, you do need to keep your own mental health in first priority and if a topic makes you that uncomfortable it's best to take a break.

Quote: LeewweewoowheeH

^im not trying to commetary about you are what i think about you by saying this and i am aware i am overly sensitive especially about certain topics but that post was legitimately terrifying for me to read i could not finish it so my reply to the last 2 posts in general will be a little broken

"However there really isn't no real examples or evidence of this happening because the data simply does not really exist
"

i will contribute to the data for you i had a personal encounter with a self proclaimed "lolicon" on an art group over a decade ago the guy pestered me trying to convince me to draw "loli" art for him for weeks i blocked him eventually because he couldnt take no for an answer and he kept coming back on different accounts in one case keeping up a conversation with me for a btit before i figured out it was the same person i myself at the time was not quite 18 yet and the guy made me feel incredibly uncomfortable it didnt take long for him to be banned from the group altogether after enough of this he was in fact asking for explicit art and trying to defend it as not being as bad as it could be which made no sense to me and i told him i was not okay with that he was an adult. 20-something on his profile. let me repeat he was contacting a teenage girl online to solicit explicit lolicon art from her to be done for him this experience was one of a few ironically that i was referring to with Vespi in confessions that contributed to ruining art for me i do not talk about it frequently but i am so bothered by seeing the defense of lolicons i feel it will do some good if i do i dont know probably not

that is the kind of people into lolicon

there is some data for you

these people are a dime a dozen it takes you about 2 minutes on the write art groups or chat boards to see them in motion

the comparison to the video games cause violence thing

nada. now in my personal experience i actually play against this because everyone i knew into excessively violent games or military games shooters games like DOOM were in fact very violent people in real life. i am not saying i believe video games case violence no just that i am the person who the surveys need to avoid because my experience tells me otherwise i dont think it reflects the whole of reality though what i do think it reflects is that violent video games attract people who already have a propensity to violence or who think about or want to commit violent acts

because people are attracted to what they like correct?

so what would that say about lolicon?

lets use the logic you presented here and disregard the concept entirely that lolicon can create those kinds of creepy people and predators. lets just say for this example it is entirely impossible.

who then is into lolicon? people who are already attracted to lolis and children

and therefore it attracts freaks and predators to it who congregate around a form of media that gets defended simply becaus its cartoons and like to shield themselves behind arguments like "the video game thing" or "theres no evidence it creates monsters" well lets say theres not there doesnt need to be because even if it doesnt create them it attracts them and encourages them and encourages the form of media that objectifies in a perverse manner children

i can assure you your example somePerson... which was... terrifying to me... of if they do what they do in private without hurting anyone then it affects no one else is not only somewhat of a horrific thing to say there is no real way to turn that into reality

where do they get there content from they likely arent just into lolicon but real things to and giving lolicon as a form of media to them is in fact encouraging them to continue and gives an alternative avenue for them to go down which if they werent already could possibly influence and lead them to take their actions into the real word and i am willing to bet everything i own and whats left of my ability to walk that a good majority of people into lolicon affected by the media itself or not will in fact harm others with their interest the kinds of people into lolicon are into it for a reason that cannot be ignored i am sorry

as for your comment skylandersfan60 on other kinds of "interests" being comparable i actually am highly against also the kinds of pornography that you listed and i also believe that all of those need to be abolished as well. i dont that much about the eating one but i can see that one not being as harmful because the world doesnt have a major problem with people trying to eat the other however the other ones you mentioned the world does in fact have a real problem with and the more industries play into that the more it will become socially acceptable and desensitized and i am all for removing those interests completely from what is legal to display in pornographic content that is for someones pleasure it is okay to me to touch on these things in a serious context in media but for someones pleasure and enjoyment in such a way to me is absolutely horrendous and it needs to be dealt with

particularly i do know that in any case of perverse related violence it is extremely objectifying of namely women and is a complete mockery insult and detraction of the serious harm and trauma that it causes victims and it should never ever ever be displayed as a means to entertain someone certainly not like that

legitimately getting upset typing this up so gonna stop for now

look the main audience of people into lolicon stuff is people who are attracted to them and therefore are attracted to children in some shape or form which is wrong which is not okay and if you can somehow find a way to defend that then you can go right ahead but as it stands at the moment i am very happy that lolicons are generally frowned upon and i hopether is an end in sight to these kind of harmful and obscene media it is not okay

the best way i can sum that up is the way others in this topic already have

lolicon is bad

DONT DO IT

I understand you have a bad experience, but I can also say I have personally interacted with lolicons who were just totally regular people. That's my own dataset on this topic. I won't add to this too much as I think we just have fundamentally different viewpoints on this tbh. I am extremely anti censorship after having so much media banned by my government and I partake in creating/enjoy content that is quite violent.

somePerson i dont feel that is entirely true you have kind of tag teamed with zap on more than one occasion in what very much came off as purposefully trying to make me uncomfortable with something directly after i explained having an issue with it that too can be misinterpreted you certainly has misinterpreted me in the same way you describe yourself i would suggest bet bet then is to apply to me what you are saying about yourself you also have continuously tried to psyche me and attribute qualitys and characteristics to me that you have based on assumptions of how you read my posts i do believe we could both do better in trying to understand one anothers speech patterns and how to better communicate with one another i have no problem with the most of your topics and they are more thought provoking than many other users so i choose to post in them because i have something to say

making clear there is no attitude to be read or aggressiveness here i am just responding to you guys

skylandersfan let me make this clear as something is aid somewhere mus thave thrown you guys off my menatl standing on this topic is doing... just fine? if you guys are referencing my comment on "i am getting upset" it was at my own writing not anything either of you said in specific other than the comments somePerson made that the average person would see as a touch on the defending lolicon and those creepy peoples side i am A-Okay responding and some users at least have appreciated my points the only ones saying i should stop posting also disagree with me and my point so i dont know how to take that but

i think i do have a personal connection to this very sensitive topic and becuase of that it is to me even more important that i put up a reply to you guys statements as i believe those with experience and or trauma with topic matter have the most powerful voices and can shed light on the feelings and emotions that are stirred up because of them and because of that i am completely A Okay to continue to post

let me do me i know my boundary level and when i have to stop better than anyone on this board ever will and trust me i am very veeeery far from a stress point i have a good grip on my emotions and reactions to these things if i did not think i could deal with it i would not post but thank you very much for your conern sincerely

i hope i cleared that up

as for your follow up point if ther eis an interest i can probably pop on reddit and make a post right now asking for peoples bad experience with lolicons and by the afternoon when i get up have like 4 dozen trauma stories from peoples interactions with them. maybe there are normal ones? theres a theory of research thats slipping my mind how i could apply you meeting the seemingly normal ones is that they are by your accounts and evidence "seemingly normal" you have a lack of evidence that they are not but you creeps but can not definitively prove that they arent creeps meanwhile the ones who give others traumatic experiences have definitive proof that they are so that completely aside though is the fact they are sexualizing a child that is a fact of the matter not an assumption that needs to be backed by evidence but the fact and i feel inherently this is behavior that should not be tolerated even ignoring any other theory or evidence

lolicon = sexualization of children

and that is the problem

should just note one thing cant edit on my phone idk why i am fully aware someperson was not trying to cause any harm i this topic and did not do anything purposefully hurtful and nothing i said was meant to imply that i did he just posted real opinions only in the first post so thats what im trying to give

Quote: LeewweewoowheeH

^im not trying to commetary about you are what i think about you by saying this and i am aware i am overly sensitive especially about certain topics but that post was legitimately terrifying for me to read i could not finish it so my reply to the last 2 posts in general will be a little broken

It was mainly this part that was concerning, but you've elaborated on that now and I understand. I find your posts interesting and it is not my intent to silence someone who disagrees with me.

ah i see i think i can tell what might have came off wrong and its all good everywhere cleared up what they meant now we cool