darkSpyro

Ever notice how good LGBT charaters are often female, while bad ones are often male?

Here, I know it's game theory, but Matt's a cool guy and gives good insight on this. I think this is what was bugging me about Tracer being LGBT (I headcanon that she's bi, as I'll get to relater to her more). Nothing against Tracer, obviously, I love her. It just bothers me how it's often females LGBT vidya game characters are good and male ones are just either ignored, evil or put into a bad light. I thin it's done this way because the majority of gamers are male, and game developers think that, becaase of that, they don't want to sympathize with an LGBT male. I also feel like when they do woman LGBT characters, they do it because they think male gamers will find it hot (That's not to say all of them are done with that intention, like Tracer). This is also something I've noticed with a few users in the Skylanders headcanon section. A lot headcanons have LGBT characters, but with the exception one, are all female oriented (Hell, I don't have a male one, but it's more because I didn't put thought into it) and I find that slightly sad and also kinda creepy....Sorry guys >.<


I'm curious about what you all think of this.

It's because men are gross and have cooties

I expected a gametheory video, and one was posted.

Quote: Windumup

I expected a gametheory video, and one was posted.

It's my favorite video of his and it's a good start to this conversation.

It's also a good way of derailing into a thread about Gametheory, though.

I guess it's because lesbians are easier to write and not get under fire. If you already want some more diversity, a gay guy can either be derided for being too stereotypical on both being manly, girly or even perfectly balanced. There are people who get all mad with lesbians aren't perfect (read: unrealistic) special snowflakes, but nowhere as vocal.

Bifrost brings up another good point, not wanting to get under fire (Along with being easier to write, but they COULD go together under certain circumstances)

Ok ok... Look, man. I understand where you're coming from and I sympathize with the cause, but I just don't care. And neither do most writers of games.

Wanna know why? Because sexual orientation is not a common thing to be brought up when writing characters. It's hard to write a character trait that you can't bring up into casual conversation without being forced, cliche or downright offensive! Not to say it's impossible, but it's not like it's the easiest thing in the world considering how sensitive and nitpicky it is.

Also, the general audience is kiiiiiiiinda getting sick of dudes! Just saying.

in just a few years men will no longer exist

If it helps, the theory of Sora & Riku being gay for each other is strong among KH fans. Yeah, it's canon that he and Kairi are a thing, but there's a scene in KH 2 when Sora find Kairi & Riku that he is clearly far more excited to see Riku that can easily be interpreted in a way that would make yaoi fans rejoice. So there's at least one headcanon out there for 2 guys for ya.

Wallace from Pokemon RSE seems flamboyant enough to allow theories and there's no real confirmation one way or the other.

Also on the topic of Pokemon, when Red & Blue were shown to be in Sun/Moon, a common theory that began floating around was the two were in Alola on their honeymoon.

I'm not a fan of Game Theory 'cus Matthew Patrick talks like an annoying gameshow host and has a rather cynical tabloid-esque approach to theories but putting all that aside, you're absolutely right.

There's not enough male gay characters. The closest to notable playable ones are Venom from Guilty Gear and Kung Jin from Mortal Kombat X. I imagine Dante from Devil May Cry could be bisexual given how he's sexy and camp. That would be titillating but there's hardly any guy-on-guy-is-hot moments. What about Square-Enix? Just look at a lot of their characters. There's a strong chance that some of them are gay.

Heck, I like the idea of Spyro being gay (and I'm an insane old-school fan... boi) or at least in a subtle way. I can see Spyro being threatened by a handsome villain and make a snarky remark. "Sorry but I'm not into bad guys."

Quote: TheToyNerd

Ok ok... Look, man. I understand where you're coming from and I sympathize with the cause, but I just don't care. And neither do most writers of games.

Wanna know why? Because sexual orientation is not a common thing to be brought up when writing characters. It's hard to write a character trait that you can't bring up into casual conversation without being forced, cliche or downright offensive! Not to say it's impossible, but it's not like it's the easiest thing in the world considering how sensitive and nitpicky it is.

Also, the general audience is kiiiiiiiinda getting sick of dudes! Just saying.

While I am bringing up that there aren't enough male characters, my main point is how they're portrayed when they are gay. I fully understand that it's hard to write into sexuality without being forced and that's a fine reason, IMO.


Altho my OP does seem a bit all over the place >.<

Quote: TheToyNerd

Ok ok... Look, man. I understand where you're coming from and I sympathize with the cause, but I just don't care. And neither do most writers of games.

Wanna know why? Because sexual orientation is not a common thing to be brought up when writing characters. It's hard to write a character trait that you can't bring up into casual conversation without being forced, cliche or downright offensive! Not to say it's impossible, but it's not like it's the easiest thing in the world considering how sensitive and nitpicky it is.

Also, the general audience is kiiiiiiiinda getting sick of dudes! Just saying.

Several gay characters in other media are mostly an offhanded mention ("hey X isn't that guy hot" from a female hetero character or bringing up gaydars) or even just confirmed by the writer but never mentioned. The hard part is writing a gay character that shows he's gay often.

Quote: Bifrost

Quote: TheToyNerd

Ok ok... Look, man. I understand where you're coming from and I sympathize with the cause, but I just don't care. And neither do most writers of games.

Wanna know why? Because sexual orientation is not a common thing to be brought up when writing characters. It's hard to write a character trait that you can't bring up into casual conversation without being forced, cliche or downright offensive! Not to say it's impossible, but it's not like it's the easiest thing in the world considering how sensitive and nitpicky it is.

Also, the general audience is kiiiiiiiinda getting sick of dudes! Just saying.

Several gay characters in other media are mostly an offhanded mention ("hey X isn't that guy hot" from a female hetero character or bringing up gaydars) or even just confirmed by the writer but never mentioned. The hard part is writing a gay character that shows he's gay often.

Yes, exactly! Ray from Archer is still my favorite gay character of all time because he embodies all the stereotypes but makes fun of them at the same time. It's hard to explain, but he's written super well and I feel like you can only do a character like Ray right one time.

Theory-

Luminous is gay

that's why he didn't get a figure

i don't get why it matters
they're fictional characters from a video game

Quote: ZapNorris

Theory-

Luminous is gay

that's why he didn't get a figure

He's theatrical, yeah, but not very gay IMO.

Quote: Mesuxelf

i don't get why it matters
they're fictional characters from a video game

Because it can be seen as representation, despite them being fictional. Having character of a certain kind and putting them in a bad light can sometimes make people think that individuals IRL are like that, or have people for are like those characters feel bad about themselves.

I mean... not technically a video-game character per sey, but there are a couple of games that feature X-Men's Iceman and he is gay.

BTW, I just wanna say that I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a SJW >.<

Oh god, I almost forgot about Hiker Andy. I mean, it's never directly stated, but it's highly suggestive from the dialogue in the Japanese version of Pokemon Black/White that he and the male trainer have a fling. He reappears in Black2/White 2 if you play the female and his dialogue has him referring back to having a lover during the time Black/White takes place which alludes towards the male trainer.

Of course Niles in Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest is bi-sexual and can marry the player regardless of gender.

Quote: Drawdler

^ Isn't Tharja in Awakening implied to be bisexual, though fem Robin can't marry her? I remember seeing a lot of that last time I looked at fan stuff, but it might've just been fan stuff, I haven't played the game in around a year now.

No clue. Only Fire Emblem I've played is Conquest. I know Rhajat, the not-Tharja of Birthright, is bi-sexual and can marry a female Corrin.

Quote: Drawdler

^ Isn't Tharja in Awakening implied to be bisexual, though fem Robin can't marry her? I remember seeing a lot of that last time I looked at fan stuff, but it might've just been fan stuff, I haven't played the game in around a year now.

I wouldn't know about Tharja, but Rhajat (Aka her FE: Fates anagram counterpart) can marry female MU.

does anyone know of any protag trans character in commercial games?
legit the closest thing i could find was this character from an obscure jrpg

Quote: arceustheprime

does anyone know of any protag trans character in commercial games?
legit the closest thing i could find was this character from an obscure jrpg

Jim Sterling is making a game about Laura Kate Dale... That's something I guess!

Quote: TheToyNerd

Quote: arceustheprime

does anyone know of any protag trans character in commercial games?
legit the closest thing i could find was this character from an obscure jrpg

Jim Sterling is making a game about Laura Kate Dale... That's something I guess!

https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz...427371385524228

That'll be something. I bet Laura will have powers and items relating to butts though I won't hold my breath for some creepy ASMR.

Lesbian characters tend to attract a wider audience.

I always wondered about Lara Croft, but that will most likely be answered at a later date.

Quote: HeyitsHotDog

Quote: ZapNorris

Theory-

Luminous is gay

that's why he didn't get a figure

He's theatrical, yeah, but not very gay IMO.

Okay fine but dr. krankcase is totally gay

Is this really something that's limited to just games though? I've always felt like lesbians get more positive exposure than gay guys do in all forms of media. I don't think it's just about sex appeal, because girls can like a good male/male pairing as much as guys can like a good female/female pairing. I think our culture is just more accepting of women showing affection to each other in general, and this extends to romantic intimacy.

Also, if you think about it, there are lots of areas where women in fiction adopt traditionally male roles and traits and are written as serious characters, yet men will usually only be written to do the inverse if they're written as a joke. This probably also factors into why women who show attraction to women are often written as serious characters while gay guys usually have their attraction to men played up for laughs.

There's plenty of serious films about gay men from Philadelphia to Moonlight. I don't see how it's impossible for people to write a gay male lead seriously and dramatically. I know just being gay shouldn't be a character's only character but have it subtly.

I hope Life is Strange Season Two revolves male gay characters written similarly to Max and Chloe.

Quote: StevemacQ

I hope Life is Strange Season Two revolves male gay characters written similarly to Max and Chloe.

this is the most offensive thing i saw you say

Quote: Big Green

Quote: StevemacQ

I hope Life is Strange Season Two revolves male gay characters written similarly to Max and Chloe.

this is the most offensive thing i saw you say

Eh? Really? THAT'S the most offensive thing I ever said?

I know there isn't much representation of homosexuals, especially male in video games but I do have to ask, unless its like Life is Strange where the its a story very focused on the characters and their interactions and very focused in on their lives, it doesn't really matter if you have main characters sexualities? If you were playing through a shooter style game, something like Titanfall (I have never played so I am sorry if I am miscaterogrizing it) and a character makes a comment pretty much saying they are homosexual or a similar sexuality, it wouldn't really feel like it was the place to include it?
In Final Fantasy theres a lot of fighting going on and in the storylines I don't expect a character to comment on sexuality as its out of the place most of the time, which is why people often release posts after games are released saying a characters sexuality, because it had no place in the game.

Though I feel one of the reasons that male homosexual characters aren't often included in games is when writing/thinking of a male being gay many people default to the flamboyant feminine personality and the world is strange in holding greatly onto the idea of masculinity. It seems that large chunks of the male population of the world fight to keep this masculine, butch non-emotional idea for characters and so because many people have it cemented in their mind that all male gays have to be feminine (which is very much not true) they struggle to hold onto that idea because it is still a male and they want to keep males masculine.

When creating a character sexuality isn't really something you think about unless it is absolutely necessary, like in a game where romance is a thing ect. That is another reason why we don't get blatant drops of character sexuality in games. Once again, there's no real place for it.

Sorry if this came off as incredibly rambly; its hard to translate these thoughts into words.

I agree, though I'm really not a fan of the "shouldn't be their whole character" thing

Like, being gay or straight defines a lot about a person. It's not some minor detail that just exists to build onto a character. Acting like gay/straight people are completely the same isn't exactly true.

Obviously it shouldn't be their whole character, but they shouldn't be a "hey look the author revealed it afterwards because it's a minor detail) type thing.

I hate gay people and straight people and people who have sexualities or lack there of

Quote: King_PikaII

I agree, though I'm really not a fan of the "shouldn't be their whole character" thing

Like, being gay or straight defines a lot about a person. It's not some minor detail that just exists to build onto a character. Acting like gay/straight people are completely the same isn't exactly true.

Obviously it shouldn't be their whole character, but they shouldn't be a "hey look the author revealed it afterwards because it's a minor detail) type thing.

I disagree with you. Mainly because with the internet now a days they all like a character only for a sexuality and nothing actually about the character aside from that (or that's what I have always seen on tumblr and other social media, is people just making 'characters' whose only trait is being gay and other sexualities. With no personality and etc). If anything, build a character first. If your story and or character has a sexuality than good on you, don't make it the main focus if it's not really relevant to anything in the story of a game. A sexuality doesn't really define a character it just adds onto knowing them.

Quote: Trix Master 100

Quote: King_PikaII

I agree, though I'm really not a fan of the "shouldn't be their whole character" thing

Like, being gay or straight defines a lot about a person. It's not some minor detail that just exists to build onto a character. Acting like gay/straight people are completely the same isn't exactly true.

Obviously it shouldn't be their whole character, but they shouldn't be a "hey look the author revealed it afterwards because it's a minor detail) type thing.

I disagree with you. Mainly because with the internet now a days they all like a character only for a sexuality and nothing actually about the character aside from that (or that's what I have always seen on tumblr and other social media, is people just making 'characters' whose only trait is being gay and other sexualities. With no personality and etc). If anything, build a character first. If your story and or character has a sexuality than good on you, don't make it the main focus if it's not really relevant to anything in the story of a game. A sexuality doesn't really define a character it just adds onto knowing them.

This is factually incorrect. This is like saying that writing a good female character or black character is just writing a character and then adding that trait to them. That's not how it works. Different people have different experiences, and writing everyone the same marginalizes these struggles. There are a lot of different nuances that need to be acknowledged. It's why people who say they are "colourblind" aren't actually doing anything to fix the issues that racial minorities face in modern society. You have to fave these issues head on in order to figure out how to write a good character. You wouldn't write a paraplegic character the same as you'd write a able character. There's a balance between making it a non-essence, and making it consume their entire personality without any real secondary characteristics.

Think of the movie Moonlight. The main character would obviously be different if he was straight. Now look at a lot of straight romances. Their entire stories would be different if they were gay. It's all about understanding the subtleties between different experiences and finding a nice balance between them.

Also, that seems like generalizing that people "only like character for being LGBT." I mean, people like characters because they have blue hair, you can't just make a wide sweeping statement and expect it to apply to everyone.

Obviously I'm talking about in a modern day setting, not fantasy or sci-fi.

Quote: King_PikaII

I agree, though I'm really not a fan of the "shouldn't be their whole character" thing

Like, being gay or straight defines a lot about a person. It's not some minor detail that just exists to build onto a character. Acting like gay/straight people are completely the same isn't exactly true.

Obviously it shouldn't be their whole character, but they shouldn't be a "hey look the author revealed it afterwards because it's a minor detail) type thing.

But the thing is.... it kind of can be? I mean, yes a gay male can act more flamboyant or a gay female a little more butch, though at the same time that is stereotyped a little and not every gay person acts that way. You can still have characters that act in a way that leads to suspicion, but as Riolu said, it isn't something that you just run around blurting out to everyone you see which means the way they act leads to suspicions but no actual confirmation as it is somewhat something that should be brought up a proper way to avoid it being obvious pandering and seem more natural. Technically speaking, every character in every game has no sexuality, neither gay, straight, or even any other, unless directly confirmed.

In games with romance, it's easy, have a love interest. But with story-driven RPGs (like Final Fantasy) where a romance sub-plot isn't always needed and would only end up forced and written poorly, there just isn't a good opportunity to bring it up leaving it to have to be revealed by the creator afterwards. Heck, take Overwatch's Tracer as an example. The game is pretty much just a PvP focused game where the story feels to take a little more of a backseat from what I've seen in terms of gameplay. There really isn't much place in the game for it to be said unless she openly blurts it out for literally no reason. If they were to go about it that way, she'd only end up a joke. Same goes for a dude to run around shouting out he likes boobs. He'd come off as a stupid dude-bro type that people would laugh at. It's just a matter of making it work from a writing stand point that can be tricky to do properly without making the character come off as an annoying stereotype or thrown in for the sake of pandering.

Quote: Seiki

Quote: King_PikaII

I agree, though I'm really not a fan of the "shouldn't be their whole character" thing

Like, being gay or straight defines a lot about a person. It's not some minor detail that just exists to build onto a character. Acting like gay/straight people are completely the same isn't exactly true.

Obviously it shouldn't be their whole character, but they shouldn't be a "hey look the author revealed it afterwards because it's a minor detail) type thing.

But the thing is.... it kind of can be? I mean, yes a gay male can act more flamboyant or a gay female a little more butch, though at the same time that is stereotyped a little and not every gay person acts that way. You can still have characters that act in a way that leads to suspicion, but as Riolu said, it isn't something that you just run around blurting out to everyone you see which means the way they act leads to suspicions but no actual confirmation as it is somewhat something that should be brought up a proper way to avoid it being obvious pandering and seem more natural. Technically speaking, every character in every game has no sexuality, neither gay, straight, or even any other, unless directly confirmed.

In games with romance, it's easy, have a love interest. But with story-driven RPGs (like Final Fantasy) where a romance sub-plot isn't always needed and would only end up forced and written poorly, there just isn't a good opportunity to bring it up leaving it to have to be revealed by the creator afterwards. Heck, take Overwatch's Tracer as an example. The game is pretty much just a PvP focused game where the story feels to take a little more of a backseat from what I've seen in terms of gameplay. There really isn't much place in the game for it to be said unless she openly blurts it out for literally no reason. If they were to go about it that way, she'd only end up a joke. Same goes for a dude to run around shouting out he likes boobs. He'd come off as a stupid dude-bro type that people would laugh at. It's just a matter of making it work from a writing stand point that can be tricky to do properly without making the character come off as an annoying stereotype or thrown in for the sake of pandering.

Oh yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I mainly meant from a modern day US/Europe/etc type thing. People will definitely have different experiences, because bigotry is just a fact of life. Then again, I'm also a complete sucker for sob story movies about minorities, so I'm probably not the most objective person in this scenario. It's why I enjoy stuff like Glee, because it speaks to me for one reason or another.

Quote: Seiki

Quote: King_PikaII

I agree, though I'm really not a fan of the "shouldn't be their whole character" thing

Like, being gay or straight defines a lot about a person. It's not some minor detail that just exists to build onto a character. Acting like gay/straight people are completely the same isn't exactly true.

Obviously it shouldn't be their whole character, but they shouldn't be a "hey look the author revealed it afterwards because it's a minor detail) type thing.

But the thing is.... it kind of can be? I mean, yes a gay male can act more flamboyant or a gay female a little more butch, though at the same time that is stereotyped a little and not every gay person acts that way. You can still have characters that act in a way that leads to suspicion, but as Riolu said, it isn't something that you just run around blurting out to everyone you see which means the way they act leads to suspicions but no actual confirmation as it is somewhat something that should be brought up a proper way to avoid it being obvious pandering and seem more natural. Technically speaking, every character in every game has no sexuality, neither gay, straight, or even any other, unless directly confirmed.

In games with romance, it's easy, have a love interest. But with story-driven RPGs (like Final Fantasy) where a romance sub-plot isn't always needed and would only end up forced and written poorly, there just isn't a good opportunity to bring it up leaving it to have to be revealed by the creator afterwards. Heck, take Overwatch's Tracer as an example. The game is pretty much just a PvP focused game where the story feels to take a little more of a backseat from what I've seen in terms of gameplay. There really isn't much place in the game for it to be said unless she openly blurts it out for literally no reason. If they were to go about it that way, she'd only end up a joke. Same goes for a dude to run around shouting out he likes boobs. He'd come off as a stupid dude-bro type that people would laugh at. It's just a matter of making it work from a writing stand point that can be tricky to do properly without making the character come off as an annoying stereotype or thrown in for the sake of pandering.

That's kind of where I was trying to get at. Thank you Seiki.

Quote: Drawdler

^ Isn't Tharja in Awakening implied to be bisexual, though fem Robin can't marry her? I remember seeing a lot of that last time I looked at fan stuff, but it might've just been fan stuff, I haven't played the game in around a year now.

tharja says the same creepy stuff about wanting to **** you regardless of avatar gender while only being able to marry male avatars (its a japanese censorship thing) but niles and TOTALLY NOT THARJA/rhajat are canonically bi and either avatar can marry them

also dont forget that pokemon XY trainer thats like 100% trans

Worse than "gay=flamboyant", now there's a group of people that will go after your work if you DON'T follow thw stereotype, because omg if they're masculine they're confiming to standards of personality.
So it's really walking on eggshells. People can't grasp that people in fiction can be as varied as people in real life, and thus, don't have to be archetypes or voices of the minority.

Don't forget Exhibit A: "these alien rocks in SU are all lesbians and how dare you ship them with men, it hurts our representation" actual sentence I hear all the time in uni

I know this straying away from the video game side of things but Mac from It's Always Sunny is gay as well, but the writers treat this part of him way differently than the other gay characters in media.

You see, Mac is in the closet... Deeeep in the closet. His extreme religious beliefs counteract the gay part of him to the point of complete denial. It's a really interesting and funny way to write a gay character IMO

Quote: King_PikaII

It's why people who say they are "colourblind" aren't actually doing anything to fix the issues that racial minorities face in modern society.

i like the idea that somehow you are helping anyone by getting pissed off at everything online

i think ghirahim is gay

do i win the argument

pfffft

what place does a blt have in a videogame

unless its a subway simulator

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Quote: MagicFizz

i think ghirahim is gay

do i win the argument

he's a ****ing sword

you can put your sword in my sheath anytime bb ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )