darkSpyro

Thank you CAV.


Nobody's saying that black on black, white on black, or black on white crime is acceptable, because it's not. It's also unacceptable for the media to treat police killings differently as they do. However, those issues do not disprove or even detract from my main points, which are:

1. POC, especially blacks, face discrimination from the police.
2. The vast majority of whites pretend that race isn't an issue in these situations.

Bumblebunnii, you're more concerned with defeating me in an argument than you are about these incidents, which all but proves the latter of my points. So good job, I guess.

I mean Bumble isn't necessarily wrong about it being a class issue. A lot of issues here and in the rest of the nation can translate into being a class issue.

But when a lot of that lower/poverty class comprises of blacks and Latinos you then end up either finding yourself in a race issue, or you ask yourself "well why is it like that?" and bring yourself to the even more complicated race issue of potential systematic oppression.

Quote: CAV

Both they and blacks like here are in the same class, but it does often seem like the black person is more likely to be seen as a potential threat by police (and in general).

Stop and frisk is a policy that police tended to have that is slowly falling out of favor (we'll get to it). It allowed officers the right to stop any random person on the street and pat them down and investigate them if they had even the slightest suspicion that they could be committing any illegal activities, were about to commit illegal activities, or had illegal possessions on them (drugs, firearms, etc).

NYC (you know, that place where ThroneofMalefor and I live) police frequently used the policy, though it's slowly being phased out. But have a look at the data over the past 10+ years and the results are clear: the vast majority of instances of stop and frisk have happened to black and Hispanic people.

You cannot argue that there isn't at least some sort of discrimination or systematic problem here. And this is not just a police thing; this is in general and nobody is excluded here.

Systematic problem, no. Discrimination in the form of subconscious bias, probably. But more importantly, the statistics also show that nonwhites are much more likely to be engaging in criminal activities in NYC.

Just take a look at the numbers from NYPD's 2015 report: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/h..._activity.shtml

For a brief and digestible rundown of the report: http://newobserveronline.com/89-crime-nyc-nonwhite/

Of course, this only represents NYC, not the whole of USA. But hey, example of NYC answered with example of NYC.

I'm not arguing with anyone. Like I've said I have kept this discussion civil and I have provided only facts.
Everyone keeps making points against what I'm saying with nothing to back it up. Why are people of color more likely to be frisked on the street? Do you know why this was put in place? To be able to approach people who looked like they were involved in criminal activity. No, not because of the color of their skin, but because it used to be illegal for a police officer to intervene when he saw gang signs being thrown around.

Are there bad cops? Yes. But do cops target people for no reason the majority of the time? No.
And for what Metallo said, 1. You keep repeating this, but provide nothing to back up this claim. Again, facts please.
2. The media coverage I see constantly would say otherwise.

You were the one who turned this into an "argument" when you privately (in addition to two other people) tried to imply that I was a racist and shut down my opinion. I have yet to say anything offensive, and I have even refrained from making valid factual points to what someone has said because it could be seen as too offensive.

Quote: Nightmoon

Systematic problem, no. Discrimination in the form of subconscious bias, probably. But more importantly, the statistics also show that nonwhites are much more likely to be engaging in criminal activities in NYC.

Just take a look at the numbers from NYPD's 2015 report: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/h..._activity.shtml

For a brief and digestible rundown of the report: http://newobserveronline.com/89-crime-nyc-nonwhite/

But then you have to dig even further. You can't just pass it off as "well blacks and latinos like to commit crimes more I guess". You have to ask "why are they more likely?".

They tend to be more likely since they tend to be in low income brackets and therefore bad neighborhoods that are mega cheap because they're so lousy. Kids in those areas may see the crime and be raised on the idea that to survive, have a name for yourself, and succeed, you need to get with them. Add on that families (often single parent families, but that's a whole other can of worms) may be too busy trying to support themselves to be able to fully watch over their children and ensure they don't get into these things, and you may have a child sucked right into that life in a misguided idea that it's the key to surviving.

But then there's also the undeniable fact that, yeah, there kinda is a sort of expectation at this point for those minorities to not really amount to much. It's kind of implied through society that that black kid growing up in the projects can't and probably won't become a CEO or any other high position such as that. That they're expected to cause trouble, and then add on the paragraph above, and now that child has the misguided idea that such a life is both their best chance at succeeding and, possibly, is what's expected of them anyway.
When dealing with job interviews, applications, and whatever so forth, a person, interviewer, or system could easily see that this is a black person from Bed-Stuy and immediately get the impression he's been in some bad **** before really taking a look at him or talking to him. Even if he's the nicest kid he's already sort of at a disadvantage because of his race and where he came from.

And then there's the school system and how schools in these neighborhoods tend to be a substantially lower quality with considerably lower funding and now you have the school system failing these kids, and now there's another layer of a problem. But then you may ask "well but if the kid is already up to no good and following down that life they won't care about school, which of course will lead to lower scores and therefore less funding and care from the rest of the system". Which isn't necessarily wrong.

But that's why this is such a complicated issue that none of us here can really answer for sure. I mean I didn't grow up in the projects. I grew up in a relatively mundane neighborhood with another, less discriminated against minority that has so little go on in it that it almost never makes the local news designed specifically to talk about these neighborhoods. I'm theorizing just as much as anybody else here can and would.
But, at least in the major cities like this one, it often does feel like there's a systematic bias in place that, yeah, is based on individual biases.

Quote: Bumblebunnii

Everyone keeps making points against what I'm saying with nothing to back it up. Why are people of color more likely to be frisked on the street? Do you know why this was put in place? To be able to approach people who looked like they were involved in criminal activity. No, not because of the color of their skin, but because it used to be illegal for a police officer to intervene when he saw gang signs being thrown around.

I posted this earlier. Look at the amount of cases that turn out innocent.

Yeah stop and frisk was put in place with good intention but it did allow cops to stop and pat down anyone they thought could be a remote risk. And like it or not a cop would sooner see a young black guy with a snapback cap and sagging pants as a risk than the late-30s white guy with the tucked in shirt and business attire, even if it turns out the white guy is the one actually concealing an illegal weapon.

I'm coming at this civilly as well. While I'm not going to sit here and say there's no wrong answers (blaming all this on Mark Ruffalo is kinda wrong), this should be an open discussion on an immensely complex issue where there's a lot of factors and viewpoints.

Also whoever is throwing PMs at Bumble calling her racist with no reasoning should really cut that **** out. That's not how you get the kind of discussions people seem to want here sometimes.

Quote: QueenChrysalis

Quote: Pixilism

jesus h. literal christ you are densely retarded

Quote: ThroneOfMalefor

your ignorance is amazing bahahahahaha pls stop

then that just means I'm right

K
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Also regardless of how you stand on the issue of systematic racism and its possible existence (or lack thereof), can we all universally agree that this is not how you solve problems?

Warning: Link has potentially graphic video.

EDIT: Sad thing is that this compounds the problem, since if people (primarily black) are going to be firing on officers, now many officers around the country will be even more paranoid and antsy, and whoops there goes another incident.
This is where Bumble's argument can begin to gain some ground.

So I went from trying to avoid this, to getting involved anyway XP

Quote: CAV

But then you have to dig even further. You can't just pass it off as "well blacks and latinos like to commit crimes more I guess". You have to ask "why are they more likely?".

From a police point of view, no. It's not their job to know each person's background or to change that background. They know why it's like that, but it's not their jobs to change it. However, from an idealistic point of view, I do agree.

Quote: shortened

low income brackets / bad neighborhoods. Kids see the crime and be raised on the idea that you need to get with them. Add on that families may be too busy trying to support themselves, and you may have a child sucked right into that life in a misguided idea that it's the key to surviving.

Problem: Poor family = poor living conditions and bad neighbourhood.
Potential solution: Fix up the poorer districts to improve quality of life for the poor.
Problem with solution: This is being done in several places, but it's being done for the wrong reasons. Kicking out the poor and constructing new buildings not for the poor to move back into, but for middle-to-upper-class. Which is completely horrible.
That is something to get worked up over. Fixing this would help everyone in these areas.

Quote:

And then there's how schools in these neighborhoods tend to be lower quality with lower funding and now you have the school system failing these kids. But then you may ask "well but if the kid is already up to no good and following down that life they won't care about school, which of course will lead to lower scores and therefore less funding and care from the rest of the system". Which isn't necessarily wrong.

Actually, no, I wouldn't ask that, because I know how ****ed the school system can be. It's obviously not the same here, but I have experienced some **** first hand, though I don't want to go into detail on that. Sadly, I don't know much about school funding, because here, the vast majority of schools are funded solely by the government and have to meet the same standards across the board, so it's not really an issue. Would be great if US adopted a similar policy, but of course that's "too socialist" and "anti-capitalist" for a lot of voters :/

But yeah, that's just my take on it, with some suggestions on what can actually be done about it if enough people care enough and group together to get it done. Politicians certainly don't seem to give a **** about it, so it'll have to be achieved by the public. A charity organization to help the poor of the US. The rich are always so willing to help the poor in other countries, why not help their own?

And now I've exhausted myself, seeya x.x

I am disgusted by the lack of empathy many of these users are displaying.

It IS a race, it has always been a race issue.

Quote: ThroneOfMalefor

Quote: QueenChrysalis

Quote: Pixilism

jesus h. literal christ you are densely retarded

Quote: ThroneOfMalefor

your ignorance is amazing bahahahahaha pls stop

[If the only way you can rebut what I've said is with childish insults,] then that just means I'm right

K
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Good job snipping out the part that calls you out for acting like a child and having absolutely nothing to add to the argument other than stupid insult hurling.

K
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Quote: CAV

Also regardless of how you stand on the issue of systematic racism and its possible existence (or lack thereof), can we all universally agree that this is not how you solve problems?

Warning: Link has potentially graphic video.

EDIT: Sad thing is that this compounds the problem, since if people (primarily black) are going to be firing on officers, now many officers around the country will be even more paranoid and antsy, and whoops there goes another incident.
This is where Bumble's argument can begin to gain some ground.

Agreed, this is the opposite of constructive.
Change takes time, we don't need violent revolutions and calculated killings to start it.

Alright, I'm less tired and incoherent, now. Time to weigh in

What happened is terrible and indicative of a bigger problem in society. I believe that problem stems from the over-criminalization of African Americans by police officers and regular people. What Alton did... was legal and he shouldn't've died. But he did! It's a terrible terrible incident that is a part of a scary trend in America. I don't fault people for getting upset at police at all. I know I would be if I lived in the city!


What you don't do in response, is SHOOT INNOCENT COPS! Like, are you ****ING KIDDING ME?! Why? That's such a great way for people to disregard your cause. Jesus... Why do people love to shoot themselves in the foot?

Quote: CAV

Also regardless of how you stand on the issue of systematic racism and its possible existence (or lack thereof), can we all universally agree that this is not how you solve problems?

Warning: Link has potentially graphic video.

EDIT: Sad thing is that this compounds the problem, since if people (primarily black) are going to be firing on officers, now many officers around the country will be even more paranoid and antsy, and whoops there goes another incident.
This is where Bumble's argument can begin to gain some ground.

"Two people were shot. So I'm going to murder 5 people and critically injure 7 others who had absolutely nothing to do with it!"

Quote: TheToyNerd

What Alton did... was legal

Due to his recent criminal history, he was prohibited from owning a firearm. As such, the weapon was acquired and carried illegally. Remember that the reason the cops were even there was because it had been reported that he was brandishing his gun, which is illegal even if you're allowed to carry a firearm, due to improper gun safety.

Quote: TheToyNerd

and he shouldn't've died. But he did! It's a terrible terrible incident

This part is true. No one should have to die for any crime, it's not a valid reason for being killed.