darkSpyro

Discuss.

On self-defense, in a situation someone can't be contained and will cause greater casualities than just killing them on sight, can't remember what else. It's no less a hard choice because there's always the nagging feeling that there MUST be another way,if you have moral standards of course.

Quote: Bifrost

On self-defense, in a situation someone can't be contained and will cause greater damage, can't remember what else.

Self-defense doesn't really count by the traditional definition of murder

So the second choice, then.

Quote: Metallo

Quote: Bifrost

On self-defense, in a situation someone can't be contained and will cause greater damage, can't remember what else.

Self-defense doesn't really count by the traditional definition of murder

I was going to say self defense, but in this case - no, I don't think it can be justified.

I believe in self-defense it can be justified, but only if theres really no other option and your in an extremely desperate and dangerous situation where you have to act super fast.

Another idea is killing someone with a huge amount of power/grip on society could be justified as well, if its in the name of freedom for many other people.

Unless, of course, they choose to stand down peacefully.

No.

Murder, can never be morally justified. The reason being is that people who kill other people either are insane or their judgement is being clouded by their emotions. Because of these two reasons, I don't think that murder can ever be morally okay. Even if you were to kill a dictator or something, it's still ending another human being's life. Which if you were to do that, wouldn't that action alone bring you down to the dictators level?


/rambling.

would u murder a minion???????

Murder is not morally right to me, but it does get things done in some situations like the murdering a dictator scenario.

It's as simple as that. The action itself is not really right, since most sane people will feel guilty no matter what (which means what they have done doesn't feel right) but it can still get things done.

Then again, in the end, morality really is just a matter of opinion and what current societal norms dictate...

Quote: Metallo

Quote: Bifrost

On self-defense, in a situation someone can't be contained and will cause greater damage, can't remember what else.

Self-defense doesn't really count by the traditional definition of murder

if you're only defining "murder" as a morally unjustified act in the first place, how do you expect someone to give an example in which murder is morally justified?

Quote: Samius

Quote: cowpowa23

Another idea is killing someone with a huge amount of power/grip on society could be justified as well, if its in the name of freedom for many other people.

Unless, of course, they choose to stand down peacefully.

Assuming that this "someone" abuses his/her power over others and drastically worsens people's lives, then I could see the logic in that. Even then there's not really a clear line where murder suddenly "becomes" justified.

^This.

EDIT: What if some common citizen somehow got to Hitler before he committed suicide, and they killed him themselves. I think it would still be justified because of what he did. Killing and oppressing millions, then starting a war where millions more died is a horrible thing to do, and if he was murdered instead of him committing suicide, then I would see it as justified.

Quote: StriderSwag

Quote: Samius

Quote: cowpowa23

Another idea is killing someone with a huge amount of power/grip on society could be justified as well, if its in the name of freedom for many other people.

Unless, of course, they choose to stand down peacefully.

Assuming that this "someone" abuses his/her power over others and drastically worsens people's lives, then I could see the logic in that. Even then there's not really a clear line where murder suddenly "becomes" justified.

^This.

EDIT: What if some common citizen somehow got to Hitler before he committed suicide, and they killed him themselves. I think it would still be justified because of what he did. Killing and oppressing millions, then starting a war where millions more died is a horrible thing to do, and if he was murdered instead of him committing suicide, then I would see it as justified.

Well in this specific example, there is actually a blatant hole preventing it from being heroic or just - killing a man who is about to kill himself anyway, is just plain bloodthirsty and nothing else. No matter how evil you believe the man to be. Your act of killing the man ultimately serves no purpose and is just a shallow attempt to commit that which is often viewed as sinful or criminal, and interpret it as heroic to feel better about yourself. It's one thing if he is causing adversity to you directly as well as the millions who are oppressed. It's another if you just are against what he did and want him stopped, and see his death as the only option. But if you find him on his figurative death bed and decide to kill him yourself anyway? That's just plain barbaric. Your act of getting involved makes no difference to the world in this instance, if he's about to kill himself anyway, so why bother?

Quote: Samius

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote: StriderSwag

^This.

EDIT: What if some common citizen somehow got to Hitler before he committed suicide, and they killed him themselves. I think it would still be justified because of what he did. Killing and oppressing millions, then starting a war where millions more died is a horrible thing to do, and if he was murdered instead of him committing suicide, then I would see it as justified.

Well in this specific example, there is actually a blatant hole preventing it from being heroic or just - killing a man who is about to kill himself anyway, is just plain bloodthirsty and nothing else. No matter how evil you believe the man to be. Your act of killing the man ultimately serves no purpose and is just a shallow attempt to commit that which is often viewed as sinful or criminal, and interpret it as heroic to feel better about yourself. It's one thing if he is causing adversity to you directly as well as the millions who are oppressed. It's another if you just are against what he did and want him stopped, and see his death as the only option. But if you find him on his figurative death bed and decide to kill him yourself anyway? That's just plain barbaric. Your act of getting involved makes no difference to the world in this instance, if he's about to kill himself anyway, so why bother?

I think StriderSwag meant some unspecified point in time before his death, rather than finding him about to kill himself. If that was the case you obviously wouldn't know that he would commit suicide in "the future" anyway.

That's what I meant. Sorry for any confusion, sonicbrawler.

kill all minions

I would never forgive myself if I took the life of another.

Well since I properly see what Strider meant, I will say that one could argue there are alternatives to killing Hitler, while still stopping his maniacal ways, such as capture and confinement, being the obvious one. While that might sound pointless, there is potential good to come of that. For example, it never hurts to try and dig into the mind of the man while he is confined, to perform psychoanalysis on him, and maybe discover the full truth and reasoning behind his maniacal actions. With knowledge like that, you can work to prevent other people from ending up following in his footsteps. This could prompt one to always monitor people who are in a position of power and to know as much about them as possible, so similarly unstable and opinionated people are never put in this position of power again.

After all, we do know that Hitler's actions against the Jews are ultimately, the result of relatively mundane childhood experiences. Such a simple little thing like that caused the slaughter of all of these people. Killing Hitler early rather than capturing him, may potentially mean people never discover facts like this, and may never take more caution when choosing who is to be in a position of power.

At the end of the day though, I once again, do not think morality is of much concern in such a scenario where one has the opportunity to kill Hitler. At least, not in regards to the act of killing itself. If you desire a more peaceful world even for a time, then killing Hitler before he really got to do much may achieve that. But it also may not. It might even make things worse. We cannot know for certain what taking his life early would mean for the world.

So at that point, only one, real question of morality remains - are you willing to take responsibility for what befalls the world once you kill Hitler, for better or for worse?

The morality surrounding the murder of the man becomes, quite frankly, trivial, irrelevant even, at that point.

kill rosalina

Quote: Big Green

kill rosalina

kill spinelli

Quote: Big Green

kill rosalina

if Rosalin was Real do You think She would Be jewish!?!?!?

Quote: arceustheprime

Quote: Big Green

kill rosalina

if Rosalin was Real do You think She would Be jewish!?!?!?

Truly inspiring to be able to come here. Rosalina was a great girl. Hopefully she would have been a belieber.

Quote: valskeletor

Quote: Metallo

Quote: Bifrost

On self-defense, in a situation someone can't be contained and will cause greater damage, can't remember what else.

Self-defense doesn't really count by the traditional definition of murder

if you're only defining "murder" as a morally unjustified act in the first place, how do you expect someone to give an example in which murder is morally justified?

I meant murder in the sense of something planned beforehand, or committed out of spite or passion (passion meaning strong emotion). Self defense really doesn't fit into those categories.

My question is, where does war stand on this? Is it murder? It is planned beforehand, and soldiers must feel passionate about their country in order to risk their lives for it.

Quote: kardonis

My question is, where does war stand on this? Is it murder? It is planned beforehand, and soldiers must feel passionate about their country in order to risk their lives for it.

Yes, war counts. And not necessarily. People have all sorts of motives for joining the military these days.

Right, so what I'm saying, or, questioning, is whether something, say, WWII from the allies perspective, was morally justified. Lives were saved, a lot of suffering for a lot of people was stopped, but the costs for both sides were immense, and heck, most of the German soldiers didn't agree with Hitler's ideals, they weren't evil, they didn't want all this bad stuff to be happening, and yet they were still killed, everyone was killed, most of them just fighting because a important people have their own agendas.

Ok, that was a pointless rant. What I'm trying to say is, I'm not sure if murder can be justified fully, (there are certainly better reasons than others) but what I think truly cannot be justified is being told to kill someone else.

If somebody finds it morally acceptable to murder, I can guarantee that there will be others who completely disagree. I'm not really saying that it depends on who does it and why, but in reality I don't believe there is a true answer. In my own opinion, first degree murder is a poor solution to any problem (although as striderswag previously mentioned, if they're a massive ****lord like hitler then I'm sure most will see some sort of justification)

I think it's justified when it's for a Klondike bar.

i killed my son because he liked jar jar binks

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Quote: StriderSwag

i killed my son because he liked jar jar binks

We killed him together.

i killed him myself and alone you killed my brother

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Quote: StriderSwag

i killed him myself and alone you killed my brother

Were they not one and the same?

WHOA WHOA WHOA WE ARE NOT GOING ALL CHINATOWN UP IN THIS

Quote: Sesshomaru75

Quote: StriderSwag

WHOA WHOA WHOA WE ARE NOT GOING ALL CHINATOWN UP IN THIS

I had to read up on what that was just now, but don't tell me how to live my interdimensional, immortal, and sinful life.

I LOVE MOVIES OKAY