darkSpyro

try and convince me that he isn't.

You read that reddit post too didn't you?

Quote: CAV

You read that reddit post too didn't you?

yes

at this point, the question is who hasnt read it.

Quote: MoonHorizons

Quote: CAV

You read that reddit post too didn't you?

yes

at this point, the question is who hasnt read it.

I haven't, please post it.

Youza talkin cwazy.

Jar Jar Binks with the Sith, LMAO.

You made my day.

Quote: Greeble

Youza talkin cwazy.

Jar Jar Binks with the Sith, LMAO.

You made my day.

let me part of the theory really quick.


So first, let's establish Jar Jar as a skilled warrior. While this does not in itself necessitate a connection with the Physical Force, it's highly suggestive in the Star Wars universe-- very rarely do we see "normal" characters exhibiting extraordinary stuntwork or physical feats unless they are Jedi, Sith, or at least force sensitives.

So here's Jar Jar nonchalantly executing a standing 20 foot twisting somersault



Now, taken out of context, if you were watching a Star Wars movie and saw a character casually execute this maneuver, you'd probably assume it was a Jedi. In the context of Jar Jar, though, we don't... because elsewhere he so thoroughly convinces us that he's nothing more than a harmless dunce with his inane dialogue and cowardly-lion act.

He also manages to convince us that he's a bumbling oaf in the midst of pitched battle... even though he's always incredibly, amazingly successful. Whether single-handedly taking down a battledroid tank, or unleashing a barrage of boombas on their front lines, or precisely targeting multiple enemies with a blaster tangled around his ankle (!!!), we simply roll our eyes and attribute it to dumb "luck."

But is it? Obi-Wan warned us otherwise.



This is one of the main reasons we as an audience hate Jar Jar so thoroughly; he breaks the fourth wall, he he shatters our suspension of disbelief, because we know that no one is really that lucky. We dismiss it as a lame, cliched trope-- the silly pathetic oaf who always seems to inadvertently save the day.

I posit that, instead, this is a deliberate facade on the part of Jar Jar as a character, and on the part of the writers and animators. As we know, the Jedi themselves are inspired by Shaolin Monks, and there's a particular kung fu discipline that Jar Jar's physicality is purposefully modeled upon which allows him to appear goofy and uncoordinated even as he lays waste to his enemies; namely, Zui Quan, or Drunken Fist wushu. This discipline seeks to imitate the "sloshing," seemingly random foibles of a drunkard, but in reality the staggering and stumbling is the use of bodily momentum, deception, and unpredictability intended to lure and confuse opponents

...ok, that's all well and good, but even if Jar Jar is a secret Drunken Fist boxing master, that doesn't make him a force user, right? Well, it should at least make us suspicious of his character period. It establishes that his over-the-top, childish antics are a veneer masking a more complex character than we're led to believe. But even if you choose to ignore Jar Jar's seemingly magical prescience in battle, I believe that there is a particular scene in which we do see him clearly make use of the physical force...

In TPM, when Jar Jar and the Jedi ambush the droids and rescue the queen and her entourage, Jar Jar "accidentally" botches his leap from the balcony. A few frames later, he is seen dropping from the opposite side of the balcony, which would seem to be quite be impossible without a force assisted jump and/or force sprint of some kind. Let's take a look at the full scene:



(Note that as they sneak up, Jar Jar is just as effortlessly stealthy as his Jedi counterparts. Interesting.)

Now as I said, we see Jar Jar catch hold of the balcony on the far right side, but then he drops to the ground on the far left. Easy to dismiss as a continuity or framing error, I suppose... except that one of the droids continues to fire on Jar Jar's initial position, even as we see him drop elsewhere!

See the droid that comes charging up, right behind the one Qui-Gon chops down? What's he shooting at up there?? And see its head swing back towards Jar Jars new position after the shot? You can also see another droid behind it tracking Jar Jar with its head, and manage a shot on the new position. This means that the animators knew very well where Jar Jar was supposed to be- dangling from the balcony over Qui-Gon's left shoulder- and purposefully animate the droids tracking his inexplicably fast movement elsewhere.

I think what has happened here, even though we don't see it directly, is that Jar Jar has purposefully split the attention of the enemies by grabbing on to the balcony as he falls, and then (using the force) propelled himself with a pull-up/flip to land in an unexpected place.

In fact, this is a maneuver we've seen before... from a jedi. Twice, if you want to count Obi-Wan doing it in the Duel of Fates to take Maul by surprise.

In addition to this kind of highly suspicious physical "luck," I also believe that we're given enough clues to justifiably suspect that Jar Jar is also a master of Jedi Mind Control.

Consider: We hate the way Jar Jar influences major plot points for the same reason we hate his physicality- it messes with our sense of realism. Two experienced Jedi on a serious mission would never actually bring someone that stupid along with them. No character that idiotic would ever really be made a general. They certainly wouldn't be made a senator. How could anyone like Jar Jar really convince the entire galaxy to abandon democracy? That's ridiculous.

These things are just the political version of his physical "luck." Inadvertent, seemingly comical bumbling that just so happens to result in astoundingly positive results. But what if it isn't inadvertant, and what if Jar Jar's meteoric rise and inexplicable influence isn't the result of dumb happenstance, but the result of extensive and careful use of force mind powers?

Jedi (and presumably Sith) exhibit telltale signs when using the Mind Trick to implant suggestions or influence behavior. For one, they always gesticulate and not-so-subtly wave their hands at the target

Jar Jar does this to promote himself to Bombad General, promote himself to Senate and as he ushered in the death of democracy.

Actually, if you watch the prequels with the idea that Jar Jar might be a manipulative, dark character, you begin to notice just how insidious and subtle his manipulation is, and how effective, in almost every sequence he's involved in, and also just how hyper-aware of the overarching plot he really is.

Examples: Jar Jar tricking the Jedi into traveling through the planet core (so that they need him). Jar Jar carefully causing a scene so that they run into Anakin. Jar Jar constantly mocking Qui-Gon behind his back while Anakin is watching (so that Anakin learns disrespect for Jedi authority early on). Jar Jar telling an 8 year old child that the queen is "pretty hot," fanning the flames of the child's infatuation that is exploited later on. I could go on.

Now if you lend even the slightest credence to my above points, and acknowledge the possibility that Jar Jar might not be an idiot, you're almost forced to conclude that Jar Jar Binks and Palpatine were co-conspirators. If Jar Jar is putting forth an elaborate act to deceive people, it means he's not a fool... and if he's not a fool, it means his actions in Episode II that facilitate Palpatine's plans are not those of an unwitting tool- they are those of a partner.

part 2.


Remember- Palpatine and Jar Jar are from the same planet, which in the scale of the Star Wars universe is like growing up as next door neighbors. It's entirely possible that they knew each other for years prior to TPM-- perhaps they trained together, or one trained the other. And Naboo is a really strange planet, actually; remember those odd ancient statues with the third eye? Naboo is the kind of place an "outcast" Gungan might find a Sith holocron or two.

But that's just speculation. Let's stick to what we know-- what we know is that even after Palpatine is elected as Chancellor, years after Jar Jar has been "tricked" into helping elect him, Palpatine still hangs out with Jar Jar in RotS.. Why? Wouldn't he be a constant source of public embarrassment? This is the same character who can't walk five yards without stepping in poodoo or squealing like a rabid donkey, right? What use does he have now? Why is he still at the right hand of the most powerful person in the galaxy? Could it be that in fact Jar Jar is the most powerful person in the galaxy?

Fine. Maybe. Hilarious conspiracy theory, but why would George Lucas bother to create this devious Gungan character with an elaborate conspiratorial past, but then never actually reveal his true nature?

Here's George Lucas (from a documentary) talking about Yoda:

Yoda really comes from a tradition in mythological storytelling- fairy tales- of the hero finding a little creature on the side of the road that seems very insignificant and not very important, but who turns out to be the master wizard, or the master thing..."

As we all know, one of Lucas' big deals with the prequels was that they were intended to "rhyme" and mirror the original trilogy in terms of general narrative themes. So there should have been a seemingly innocent creature found on the side of the road that later reveals itself as a major player. We do have a creature that this seems to describe precisely... Jar Jar... but of course he never develops into a "master" anything.

Here's what I think happened: I think that Jar Jar was initially intended to be the prequel (and Dark Side) equivalent of Yoda. Just as Yoda has his "big reveal" when we learn that his tottering, geriatric goofball persona is just a mask, Jar Jar was intended to have a big reveal in Episode II or III where we learn that he's not really a naive dope, but rather a master puppeteer Sith in league with (or perhaps in charge of) Palpatine.

However, GL chickened out. The fan reaction to Jar Jar was so vitriolic that this aspect of the trilogy was abandoned. Just too risky... if Jar Jar is truly that off-putting, it's potentially ruinous to the Star Wars legacy to imply that he's the ultimate bad guy of the entire saga. So pretend he was just a failed attempt at comic relief instead.

This is why Dooku seems like such a flat, shoehorned-in character with no backstory; he was hastily written in to cover the plot holes left when villain Jar Jar was redacted. Yoda was meant to duel with his literal darkside nemesis and mythological equivalent at the end of AotC: not boring old Count Dooku, but Sith Master Jar Jar. And Binks was meant to escape, not just that duel but to survive the entire trilogy... so that he could cast a shadow on the OT, too; you'd rewatch the originals knowing that the Emperor wasn't necessarily the big baddie after all... Jar Jar is still out there somewhere. It would have been sort of brilliant.

But I believe it is likely that the writers of the new trilogy will resurrect this idea. Most people seem to think that Disney wishes to distance or somehow disassociate itself from the prequels... but this doesn't actually make any economic or marketing sense. There is far more prequel-era based intellectual property to capitalize on than there is OT, if only because of the Clone Wars movie and series. Billions of dollars in iconic toys, images, characters, games, park rides, etc that an entire younger generation grew up on. Disney is not going to pretend that over half of the $4 billion in IP they bought simply isn't worth acknowledging.

That was a very interesting read.

Jar Jar = Kylo Ren confirmed

tl;dr

Quote: Badwolfmichael

tl;dr

Yes, please.

I concur

brb, watching the prequel trilogy and the clone wars tv series again.

Quote: kardonis

brb, watching the prequel trilogy and the clone wars tv series again.

The Clone Wars series was amazing.
There was only about 5 bad episodes in all 6 or 7 so Seasons it had.

How dare you associate it with the prequels.

Well

Looks like Strider Swag wants Jar Jar to shove his lightsaber up her ass.

Quote: Badwolfmichael

Quote: kardonis

brb, watching the prequel trilogy and the clone wars tv series again.

The Clone Wars series was amazing.
There was only about 5 bad episodes in all 6 or 7 so Seasons it had.

How dare you associate it with the prequels.

How dare you associate the prequels with the word bad.

Quote: PwnageFTW

Well

Looks like Strider Swag wants Jar Jar to shove his lightsaber up her ass.

- - -

Jar Jar Binks as a major villain actually sounds pretty awesome (And I'm being sincere about this). Unfortunately, at this point, actually acting on that idea would just seem like a bad Fan-Fic made by some kid who hates Jar Jar and is just making him the villain of their story to make fun of how much he ruins the prequel trilogy. Not to mention the fact that revealing Jar Jar to be evil would be really weird at this point, considering he's always been considered one of the good guys, and we've known him as one of the good guys for 15 odd years.

Still... I can picture a heartbreaking moment during the 3rd film, when spoiler all the Jedi are being killed /spoiler. Jar-Jar appears behind a Jedi and just says "Sorry". She turns to ask why he's sorry, at which point he kills her with a blaster. He drops the blaster and runs away as the realization that he's just murdered someone sets in.

i initially just dismissed this theory because i hate jar jar but i went back and read it and i feel like it has at least some weight to it

Quote: Mesuxelf

Quote: Badwolfmichael

Quote: kardonis

brb, watching the prequel trilogy and the clone wars tv series again.

The Clone Wars series was amazing.
There was only about 5 bad episodes in all 6 or 7 so Seasons it had.

How dare you associate it with the prequels.

How dare you associate the prequels with the word bad.

Heh that's nothing compared to what other people say. I know you like them, Mesu, but almost everyone else hates the prequels with a burning passion.

People see these movies like how you see Swap Force.

Quote: HeyitsHotDog

Quote: Mesuxelf

Quote: Badwolfmichael

The Clone Wars series was amazing.
There was only about 5 bad episodes in all 6 or 7 so Seasons it had.

How dare you associate it with the prequels.

How dare you associate the prequels with the word bad.

Heh that's nothing compared to what other people say. I know you like them, Mesu, but almost everyone else hates the prequels with a burning passion.

People see these movies like how you see Swap Force.

that's...not true, a lot of people are ok with the prequels (like me) even though they have some stupid stuff going on, but they introduce some cool stuff too

Also, this has to be said...

The big hole in this theory is the rule of two and that palpatine would have been breaking one of the most important sith laws if jar jar were really a sith. Maul and Palpatine were the first two, then dooku, then anakin/vader. I guess they could have written it with jar jar as a villain in 2 instead of dooku but that seems silly to me too. Jar Jar IS the one who gives palpatine his power in episode 1 so he could be seen as an accidental villain though.

I also do like the prequels okay enough. They aren't nearly as good as the original trilogy but they do have some interesting stuff too.

Quote: QueenChrysalis

Also, this has to be said...

*Sigh*...I like Jar Jar Binks. I personally like the idea of him being force sensitive, but not a Sith. I'd love for him to come back in TFA or one of the sequels as a Master Jedi.

Quote: Rendar

The big hole in this theory is the rule of two and that palpatine would have been breaking one of the most important sith laws if jar jar were really a sith. Maul and Palpatine were the first two, then dooku, then anakin/vader. I guess they could have written it with jar jar as a villain in 2 instead of dooku but that seems silly to me too. Jar Jar IS the one who gives palpatine his power in episode 1 so he could be seen as an accidental villain though.

I also do like the prequels okay enough. They aren't nearly as good as the original trilogy but they do have some interesting stuff too.

Well the idea is that Jar Jar's villain status was retconned because of how unpopular he was. So Dooku was introduced to fill in his role. Still, Jar Jar would have been the Wormtongue rather than a true Sith. I don't really know anything about Star Wars lore outside of the movies, so I don't know if this "Rule of Two" things would apply to recruiting minions who just happen to have some Jedi powers.

One thing I have trouble believing is that Jar Jar was a POWERFUL Jedi. In terms of combat ability anyway, he's too uncoordinated. I mean... Nobody would VOLUNTARILY get their hand stuck in a jet-engine, then voluntarily get their face electrocuted. If he had any TK powers he probably would have looked around to make sure nobody was watching then used the force to grab that spanner (or what ever it was).

If Jar Jar were a Jedi, I imagine him being a genuine bumbling idiot who ended up on the wrong side, but had an unnatural aptitude for mind trickery ("Hey, why does that guy always wave his hands around when he talks?")

Quote: HeyitsHotDog

I personally like the idea of him being force sensitive, but not a Sith. I'd love for him to come back in TFA or one of the sequels as a Master Jedi.

The problem with Jar Jar becoming a proper Jedi between the events of Ep 3 and 7 is that he'd be starting to tread into Sue territory ("Oh great, he's a JEDI now?"). At least if he were a Sith, he'd have a reason to hide pre-existing powers. And if he was a GOOD Jedi all along, then it would be a case of "Well why didn't you help the good guys with your powers that whole time...?

Quote: Mesuxelf

Quote: Badwolfmichael

tl;dr

Yes, please.

Jar Jar wields ungodly force powers, has actually been a major player in setting Anakin on the path to the Dark Side, intentionally bumbled things up to make things more difficult, and had been conspiring with the Emperor to create the Empire (or possibly, that Jar Jar was even in control of everything the whole time and is still out there).

Quote: Big Green

Quote: HeyitsHotDog

Quote: Mesuxelf

How dare you associate the prequels with the word bad.

Heh that's nothing compared to what other people say. I know you like them, Mesu, but almost everyone else hates the prequels with a burning passion.

People see these movies like how you see Swap Force.

that's...not true, a lot of people are ok with the prequels (like me) even though they have some stupid stuff going on, but they introduce some cool stuff too

I've mostly seen scorn and hatred towards the prequels, though I think part of it it based on everyone just remembering Episode I and thinking "yeah they were all bad see?".

It's a shame since even taking out the baggage of the prequels, Revenge of the Sith is an excellent movie and doesn't really deserved to get lumped together like that.

This thread makes me laugh so much.

Congratulations

This is a spiderman thread now.

i clicked it

Quote: Blackholes_Wolf

i clicked it

what sort of kinky stuff did you find in there.

Quote: MoonHorizons

Quote: Blackholes_Wolf

i clicked it

what sort of kinky stuff did you find in there.

ohohoho, im not telling :^)

there's one colossal reason why this theory has no chance of being true

george lucas is a ****ing idiot and there is no way in hell he did any of that stuff intentionally, just through sheer dumb director luck.

jar jar is just as bad as midichlorians and the prequels are still the most disappointing thing since my son

i literally have no idea how anyone can enjoy the prequels as a watchable movie beyond a "what even is this" sort of thing

-there's no defined main character
-there's no characterization at all. can you describe any of these characters without saying what they look like, what they wore, their profession, or role in the movie?
-they ruined yoda with episode 2
-literally everyone has to be an idiot to not realize that something is up with palpatine, and even when they do, they approach an alleged sith lord with like 3 jedi in his own personal quarters like yeah that'll stop a sith lord
-literally every jedi has to be a complete moron to allow for all of this stupid **** to pass under their noses like that
-jar jar does not fit in tone with the rest of the movie, and the fact that he was made a senator only adds to the inconsistency of the plot
-why does padme not age?
-count dooku??? who's side is he even on?? did he know that palpatine was sidious?
-did admiral asthma know that palpatine was sidious? either way it just creates plot holes.

there are so many things wrong with the prequel from a story perspective that the original trilogy didn't have. i feel like i could go on for hours about all of this stuff

Phantom Menace is a barely passable/mediocre film in its own right made to look worse standing next to what came before it.

Attack of the Clones is legit boring and bad.

Revenge of the Sith is my favorite in the entire saga and improves a lot from the two films before it and has some real tension to it. It was also my first film so there's probably some nostalgia bias in there.