darkSpyro

Quote: XSparxX

You simply don't seem to understand Lightnings character. Go ahead and praise your beloved Cloud as well as those other dumb video game girls. But Lightning, no, she gets all the hate for nothing. ~~~

Err, Lightning WAS a bad character. She was so under developed, and even whatever they attempted to develop her character, it was poorly executed.


Quote: XSparxX

Because Cloud is the most OVER hyped (emo) character in the whole Final Fantasy series o,ô

Sounds like you didn't play FFVII.

Uh, um, well, hmm...

WHY CAN'T I HAVE A PS4 SO I CAN PLAY AS LADY AND TRISH IN DEVIL MAY CRY 4?! <.>

gonna ignore everything said because i have a metroid: other m to bash

*clears throat*

Metroid: Other M Is Bad Episode I: The Malkovich Menace

Right now I'm just gonna talk about Samus' relationship with Adam Malkovich. Freakin' Adam Malkovich. Because said relationship is relevant to the topic. I think. And what I'm going to say has been a thousand times already and way better than the way I am saying it, but, well, here goes. also im tired so uh

I...I'm not even gonna sugarcoat it or anything: Samus went from independent to a poor, poor child who just wants 'Daddy' to appreciate her in ten seconds flat.

And since Other M takes place after the original Metroid, the whole Metroid Prime series, Return of Samus, and Super Metroid... Um, no? There really isn't a way to justify this. And before anyone says 'Yeah well Metroid Prime isn't canon', I don't really care. Point still stands, regardless.

Samus spends Other M wondering about...well, Adam's opinion on things. The times where she actually offers her own are so few as to be nonexistent. At this point it's basically 'What would Jesus do?' only in this case Jesus is Adam.

And Adam does...absolutely nothing to deserve her apparent worship of him. He doesn't allow her to use life-saving equipment (I will never forgive him for the 'Don't authorize Varia Suit until much later even when it's really needed' fiasco; he has no reason to keep her from using her defensive equipment), is condescending to her (that 'Any objections, Lady?' does not sound endearing in the slightest; he is clearly singling her out because of her gender), shoots her in the freaking back at one point because he clearly doesn't trust her...

And this is treated as a good thing by the narrative. The game even has Samus herself says as much ("Adam... Thank you," after the scene which follows him shooting her...).

Me, I guess I'm just really freaking bothered by Samus having her independence, her competence, taken away from her so that Adam can look good. I get bugged by the 'female character is submissive to/obsessed with male character' thing as is, but when you take a female character who has been established to be quite capable on her own merits, and attempt to define her by her relationship to a man, and break her character to make her 100% obsessed with him...... No. Just no.

Not to mention all the ways the game tries to portray Samus as a child and Adam as the responsible adult (the flashback with Ian is a particularly frustrating example for me, as Adam doesn't even acknowledge her and just ignores her like she's a child when the situation is actually quite different from that).

As far as Samus' relationship with Adam goes, Metroid Fusion did it better and both characters were a bit bland in that game. But there, you could tell there was respect between them.

In Other M, Samus worships a man who has little to no respect for her. And that's terrible.

I mean, I've rambled enough and feel like I've said nothing of value, so, uh, here's a quick way that I feel some things could have been fixed: Have Adam actually respect Samus, and let Samus have her own thoughts. And don't have Adam shoot her in the back, please. Actually take what Fusion had and build something from there.

Oh, and make Other M less of a fanfiction and Adam less of a self-insert. That'd help, too.

i shouldnt talk about stuff like this when im tired

*flees topic*

Quote: spyrolvr96

Quote: TacoMakerSkys

Cloud is a guy, and cross-dresses for one part of the game. Why are you trying to force Cloud to become the opposite gender wtf?

H- he never said Cloud is a girl...

He kinda implied it here.

Quote: zer0dch

Quote: XSparxX

You simply don't seem to understand Lightnings character. Go ahead and praise your beloved Cloud as well as those other dumb video game girls. But Lightning, no, she gets all the hate for nothing. ~~~

Err, Lightning WAS a bad character. She was so under developed, and even whatever they attempted to develop her character, it was poorly executed.


Quote: XSparxX

Because Cloud is the most OVER hyped (emo) character in the whole Final Fantasy series o,ô

Sounds like you didn't play FFVII.

Sounds like you didn't play FFXIII trilogy. Congrats you don't even understand Lightning. Wow. What a surprise, a Lightning/FFXIII hater doesn't like Lightning/FFXIII and means that she is a bad character. Or how Lightning would say: Full points for originality. ^-^ I play FFVII and don't like it. :3
Plz don't post in my guestbook that I should play Final Fantasy "XYZ", like the last time you did. I have played every Final Fantasy game, don't worry. :3 Please accept that FFXIII and Lightning have a lot of Fans. Plz whine somewhere else about Lightning/FFXIII, and stop harassing me. Uh, and stop scolding me that I've never played any other FF's beside FFXII, that's not true. Thanks

Can I ignore some Users here? I hope a "User ignore" button exist in this Forum. :3

Please stop this everyone. Forgive me for even mentioning Lightning at all. I never thought finding a character that's a strong female would derail the entire topic.

Fine! Terra from Final Fantasy VI. Whatever.

Quote: StevemacQ

Fine! Terra from Final Fantasy VI. Whatever.

Beautiful Cinnamon Roll Too Good For This World, Too Pure...

Quote: TacoMakerSkys

He kinda implied it here.

He really didn't, though. He just put Cloud in a group with only other girls. He was essentially saying people like Cloud "as well as those other dumb video game girls" despite them having the same traits that make them despise Lightning.

Quote: spyrolvr96

Quote: TacoMakerSkys

He kinda implied it here.

He really didn't, though. He just put Cloud in a group with only other girls. He was essentially saying people like Cloud "as well as those other dumb video game girls" despite them having the same traits that make them despise Lightning.

Thanks for understanding me.

Quote: XSparxX

Quote: zer0dch

Quote: XSparxX

You simply don't seem to understand Lightnings character. Go ahead and praise your beloved Cloud as well as those other dumb video game girls. But Lightning, no, she gets all the hate for nothing. ~~~

Err, Lightning WAS a bad character. She was so under developed, and even whatever they attempted to develop her character, it was poorly executed.


Quote: XSparxX

Because Cloud is the most OVER hyped (emo) character in the whole Final Fantasy series o,ô

Sounds like you didn't play FFVII.

Sounds like you didn't play FFXIII trilogy. Congrats you don't even understand Lightning. Wow. What a surprise, a Lightning/FFXIII hater doesn't like Lightning/FFXIII and means that she is a bad character. Or how Lightning would say: Full points for originality. ^-^ I play FFVII and don't like it. :3
Plz don't post in my guestbook that I should play Final Fantasy "XYZ", like the last time you did. I have played every Final Fantasy game, don't worry. :3 Please accept that FFXIII and Lightning have a lot of Fans. Plz whine somewhere else about Lightning/FFXIII, and stop harassing me. Uh, and stop scolding me that I've never played any other FF's beside FFXII, that's not true. Thanks

Can I ignore some Users here? I hope a "User ignore" button exist in this Forum. :3

You can report him. The faster you report him, the faster he'll finally leave this site.

^ I find it confusing why he (zer0dch) keeps getting suspended, then suspended in like a few days afterwords...? I thought suspension lasts for about two weeks.

Also I'm pretty sure there was once a FF game where the main cast was all female. So there's that. And I honestly agree that Lightning was a good, strong female protagonist. Sure there were much better protagonists, but that doesn't change the fact that Lightning was a strong female character.

Exactly. I said strong FEMALE, not some like BEST FINAL FANTASY CHARACTER EVARH!

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote: StevemacQ

Fine! Terra from Final Fantasy VI. Whatever.

Beautiful Cinnamon Roll Too Good For This World, Too Pure...

lets all be honest here
terra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lightning

Terra never particularly caught my interest when I played Dissidia and I never really was motivated to play FFVI, though she's kinda cute in Dissidia.

However, if we talk Dissidia tiers, Lightning>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Terra.

Quote:

TacoMakerSkys]

You can report him. The faster you report him, the faster he'll finally leave this site.

Okay, thank you.

I'd never say Lightning is the BEEST FINAL FANTASY CHARACTER EVAAAAHR, but for me she is one of the best. FFXIII has a lot of strong female characters reffering to Fang, Vanille, Serah, Lumina, Lebreau and Yeul.

Yuna, Rikku, Paine and Lulu are strong female characters too, and plz don't forget Dagger, Eiko, Freya and Beatrix of the FFIX cast

Ironically FFXV is the opposite of FFXIII, there are more strong male characters as females.

I will nerver forgive SE for what they did to Yuna ...

Terra is okay but not better as Lightning.

Yes THIS IS ABOUT strong female characters, and FFXIII has a lot of strong females.

Quote: XSparxX

Quote:

TacoMakerSkys]

You can report him. The faster you report him, the faster he'll finally leave this site.

Okay, thank you.

I'd never say Lightning is the BEEST FINAL FANTASY CHARACTER EVAAAAHR, but for me she is one of the best. FFXIII has a lot of strong female characters reffering to Fang, Vanille, Serah, Lumina, Lebreau and Yeul.

Yuna, Rikku, Paine and Lulu are strong female characters too, and plz don't forget Dagger, Eiko, Freya and Beatrix of the FFIX cast

Ironically FFXV is the opposite of FFXIII, there are more strong male characters as females.

I will nerver forgive SE for what they did to Yuna ...

Terra is okay but not better as Lightning.

Yes THIS IS ABOUT strong female characters, and FFXIII has a lot of strong females.

Stop. Just stop it. I like FFXIII a bit but just stop derailing the subject. Sorry I ever even mentioned Lightning. Perhaps I belong in GameFAQs too even saying anything about XIII caused a flame war... I need a shower.

Wasn't the original point of this thread to argue that strong female characters have been in the industry before Rosalina? What happened in here? Oh and btw for Final Fantasy females it's Tifa>Terra>Rydia>Celes>and about 50 others before Lightning (I'm exaggerating of course ;P ). I don't know much about Rosalina but strong females in gaming have been around for a while. It would be hard to determine if any one character from the Mario franchise would be responsible for anything currently in gaming. I mean hell even kids games like Infinity are including strong female characters like Black Widow in the 2.0 starter and Ahsoka in the 3.0 starter. Skylanders had Stealh Elf in the Swap Force starter and as far as I know she's the only female humanoid they've included in a starter (yes I know Cynder came with Giants but there's no way to know she's a female if you don't know the character). Lego Dimensions will come with Wild Style so there's that. There's a ton of strong female characters out there that seem to have their own identities.


Seriously we like who we like that there's nothing else too it. I'm an old school gaming so my affinity is towards the older characters. I'm sure most of the younger crowd tends to gravitate towards the newer characters. It's the same in music and movies. I don't hate lightning per say I'm just very apathetic towards anything post FF7. FF2 (U.S. SNES) is my personal fav. in spite of it's horrible translation. I picked up the remake for the DSI and love it. In the life of a gamer, it doesn't matter who or what you like, as long as you play the game.

samus is probably the most sterling example of a strong female character that i can immediately think of

that is assuming we just pretend like other m doesn't exist, which i've been doing for as long as my sanity can allow

^Other M was just a bad dream... It had to be...

^ Other M was awesome, don't understand the hate. I like it more as the Prime trilogy.

Only problem Other M had was the god awful story and characterisation. I think the gameplay looks fine though.

Yes the gameplay was imo better as Metroid Prime 1-3.

There are people that thought Other M had good gameplay? It was literally "mash the d-pad to sensemove so that you dodge every single attack and instantly charge your beam". There was no strategy to fighting.

Quote: XSparxX

^ Other M was awesome, don't understand the hate. I like it more as the Prime trilogy.

Quote: XSparxX

Yes the gameplay was imo better as Metroid Prime 1-3. :)

Nonononono NOOOO.

Other M was AWFUL. AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL.

Play Super Metroid, Fusion, and Prime 1,2,3.

Quote: zer0dch

Quote: XSparxX

^ Other M was awesome, don't understand the hate. I like it more as the Prime trilogy.

Quote: XSparxX

Yes the gameplay was imo better as Metroid Prime 1-3.

Nonononono NOOOO.

Other M was AWFUL. AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL.

Play Super Metroid, Fusion, and Prime 1,2,3.

Oh no, not you again -__- Are you stalking me?
I played Super Metroid and Prime 1-3 ... Yes I have the original Prime trilogy for Wii not the Wii U download. But I like Other M more. Different peoples have different tastes ...

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Only problem Other M had was the god awful story and characterisation. I think the gameplay looks fine though.

From what I've seen, Other M had some good ideas as far as gameplay goes, but they weren't really done well (only using the Wii Remote sounds particularly painful to me, for example).

I wouldn't mind seeing its gameplay style again, but with the flaws fixed and no story that makes me want to bash my head against a wall.

good:
the boss
alice from american mcgee's alice
bayonetta

bad:
samus (other m version)
lighting

100% fact

Quote: Blackholes_Wolf

good:
the boss

also a very good example
---

metroid prime is easily my favorite metroid game, and probably my favorite soundtrack in any game, with super metroid as a very close second

other m samus kind of ruined the character for me

Samus has a character before Other M? For me she was always a lifeless avatar in Super Metroid/Prime. I think I'm the only one who like Samus a lot in Other M.

Samus had a character in the past, but in the Prime Trilogy especially, it was portrayed mostly through subtle actions.

It could be debated that they didn't do enough with her, but at the same time, she's the mascot of a Nintendo franchise - having a massively defined character generally is not a priority.

Samus had a character in Fusion, and she had some dialogue in Zero Mission (and maybe Super Metroid but I could be wrong since I haven't played it yet). And while she didn't speak in Metroid Prime, she still showed a lot of her character through her actions. *spoiler'd because I'm paranoid*



^Just a few examples, but point is, even without speech, there's a character there.

Also, just because Other M was the 'first' game to give Samus a voice (even though I would argue Fusion was the first to really do that), any form of characterization is not necessarily better than none. Sometimes, less is more.

I was trying to avoid posting this, but I think this Extra Credits video is relevant to the discussion.

the very first time samus was revealed to be a woman is apparently one of the video gaming industry's greatest moments/jaw dropping moments. so you can't deny that samus had an influence

Quote: DarkCynder_543

the very first time samus was revealed to be a woman is apparently one of the video gaming industry's greatest moments/jaw dropping moments. so you can't deny that samus had an influence

I don't think anyone is trying to deny Samus had an influence on the industry.

She's on Nintendo's official list of best/most influential Nintendo ladies.

^ Ah, I forgot about Lucina. Also I personally think that just Zelda her self, or Sheik should be on that list.... >_<
Yeah Lucina's definitely added to the list of awesome female characters. Also great cosplay material. I'm so cosplaying as her someday (and American McGee's Alice).

And well at least some people notice Samus's appeal. I do agree that she has been used as a sex object lately though. People claim that she was used as a sex object at the beginning by being in a bikini when revealed, but I just saw that as Nintendo being practical. I mean come on, she's in a huge friking suit; it must be hot in there. I'm sure if she was revealed to be a shirtless guy people wouldn't have seen it as sexualising.

oh and people are forgetting about zinnia, cynthia and iris from pokemon. and all the female pokemon gym leaders and heroines.

I think Lucina was a pre-emptive entry to that list because I honestly don't think it could be said she's done enough yet or really represents anything very specific yet that the other characters don't already fill. She's also the star of a game that is - let's be real here - as much a romance simulator as it is a strategy RPG, and canonically, she's Male Robin's (i.e. the player's) lover, and she has been subject to official fanservice for no real reason.

That's not me saying she's a bad character or anything (don't have an opinion on her overall outside of Smash - Smash pretty much just makes her Femarth, but CAV has told me in the past that Lucina's Smash portrayal is kinda off in both her character and her fighting style), but she doesn't come to mind at all when thinking about influential characters or anything, and her agency is kinda hurt by the fact that she is literally in-part designed to be the player's potential waifu, and CANONICALLY is.

it's not just lucina who's a potential waifu. in awakening you can choose heaps of characters to be your waifu/husbando. males fall under that category if you play as girl robin. heck chrom is a major character that falls under this. if it was only her, i would say yeah sure, she's not a good influence, but she's not. also their's sexual images of every character, males included.

i honestly think people are just being extremely picky now. tetra is a great character and can have an influence, and came before rosalina. and she's first on that list. yet i know people are going to say that because she transforms into zelda (even though she's still badass as zelda), had to get rescued in PH (despite the fact that she got herself into trouble because her fiery personality, not because she was weak) and only appears in a couple of games she can't be included, which is stupid.

Quote: XSparxX

Samus has a character before Other M? For me she was always a lifeless avatar in Super Metroid/Prime. I think I'm the only one who like Samus a lot in Other M.

that was sort of the point. she was a silent protagonist that showed emotions through actions and besides she didn't need to speak because she was pretty much alone.
i always felt like she was a heartless, greedy bounty hunter type that had a hidden personal agenda about her past.

The thing is though, although Elizabeth and Ellie were really great characters (and it's crazy to think that they had anything to do with Rosalina. I mean come on why would Naughtydog have anything to do with Nintendo of Japan), apparently even them two had issues with being in their respective games and I feel that it may have been because of their gender. Ellie was apparently pushed to be the strong and tomboyish character she was in TLoU by the actress playing as her, and the company responsible for Bioshock Infinite originally didn't even want Elizabeth in the game and her designer had to push for her to be in the game and make the game revolve around her. So it's kind of annoying how game companies still seem to have issues with strong female characters playing important roles, despite it being obvious that they can sell really well considering the amount of fame TLoU and BSI had. And even Elizabeth isn't exactly perfect considering one of her designs involves barley covering her breasts, and she wears it throughout most of the game. Although I feel that I probably should take all that with a grain of salt, since I only saw that on Wikipedia. Although Wikipedia has been trustworthy to be every time I've used it and I don't see why it gets a lot of hate.

I also liked the general treatment of woman in those two games in general (with the exception of Elizabeth's outfit, considering it's somewhat justified with 'that's all they had'), since it's not just Ellie and Elizabeth who are a strong character in those games. Infinite also had Daisy and TLoU also had Tess. Hopefully those two games really start to set up a trend. Now all we need is for people to actually realize that men in video games are being stereo-typed too and it's not just woman, considering most american games have a male protagonist that is on steroids, middle-aged and a bad-ass personality, which is all to do with the toxic masculinity issues.

Quote:

(and it's crazy to think that they had anything to do with Rosalina. I mean come on why would Naughtydog have anything to do with Nintendo of Japan)

That isn't what I said.

I said Rosalina had an influence on how people (game developers and consumers alike) perceive what "good female characterisation" should be going forward (because once again, a female character that is simply strong and able to kick butt does not equal a good female character automatically. I know a lot of people here don't like Cynder in TLoS, and she was certainly strong and able to kick butt in every game except TEN).

I never said anything about Naughty Dog or anyone directly getting in contact with Nintendo about anything. Nintendo are simply the most influential company in the industry, and they influence a lot of things without actually forcing anything down other companies throats. Anything they make that is influential is either unconscious (i.e. other developers appreciated what they put out and go to make something like it in the future and generally will not realise it), or is along the lines of the basic foundations of playing our games (controller layouts, motion controls, etc).

Rosalina's influence was of the former kind - people may not necessarily directly credit the character, but their decisions in their own games were influenced by what Rosalina represented (non-intrusive storytelling, and a female character with a ton of agency in a game that is otherwise about nothing but pure, fun gameplay). And it's one that was kind of intentional on Koizumi's part. He was constantly shut down by Miyamoto regarding incorporating more story into Mario, and Sunshine contributed to that. Miyamoto also didn't want Rosalina as a main character of the game initially (she was initially going to be a "one level" character like the Honey Queen, and was at one point going to be Peach's relative, which would have inevitably made her overshadowed by Peach in the long run), because, as he put it, "we already have Princess Peach as our main female Mario character" - a character that ultimately has little significance in the game, and serves as nothing more than a goal, an object to motivate the player (and after so many years of this being the goal of Mario games it's debatable as to whether or not it even successfully serves as that).

But Koizumi wanted to show the world that these things were not out of place in a Mario game, or any game, so he went out of his way to secretly make Rosalina a more integral character, and incorporate the story elements he did.

And before the influence is denied once again, please look at the discussions Rosalina caused back in the day. There's even a Gamasutra article on it (ignoring the misinterpretation of Rosalina being a princess, it's a really good read, as Gamasutra articles tend to be):

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/...torytelling.php
http://www.wired.com/2007/12/interview-super/

And she isn't this one and done fad character either, she is now a main character of the Mario franchise going forward, which is definitely worth talking about, because implementing a new, main character into a series as prolific as Mario is extremely hard to do without upsetting people, so Rosalina now serves as the prime inspiration and example on how to do that.

So yeah, I never said other companies approach Nintendo directly with "can we make your character like Rosalina?". From what I know, characters like Ellie and Elizabeth have barely anything in common with Rosalina as characters. But they are influenced by the game design philosophies Super Mario Galaxy brought to light using Rosalina.

That is not me glorifying Rosalina or underselling other characters. Being influenced by something that was great already is not a bad thing at all. It is simply a matter of fact that Rosalina definitely serves as an influence and great inspiration for game designers. Much like the other female characters on that list of posters above (which by the way, was not supposed to be in any specific order).

Personally i didn't find Elizabeth's outfit all that bad(maybe people have complained about it and i haven't seen it though). I think Irrational was going for something kind of like Bayonetta with the whole "Strong and well written female character that still looks beautiful while being a badass," but on a much, much, MUCH lower sexual scale than Bayonetta.

IMO, Elizabeth is an example of a perfect female character. She's an excepionally well written character, a well designed character, a well performed character, and a well-everything character overall. She's naive but she's still smart. She's fun and joyful but still has things that haunt her. She brings the right amount of emotion to every scene she's in. And she's a great expansion on gameplay, what with never getting in the way, quickly giving you items without taking the player out of the action, and giving new ideas and plans of attack with the ripples in time thing(can't remember what that was called, I haven't played Infinite since it came out). I also like Ellie for a lot of the same reasons, though I prefer Elizabeth just because she does a bit more gameplay-wise than Ellie.

I guess it would be smart to talk about Alyx Vance now, since that's partially what created this thread in the first place;

As amazing as Half Life 2 was, Gordon Freeman was still a pretty wooden character, and that's mostly because he was a silent protagonist. There wasn't much emotion to relate to him in the game at all. Then Alyx comes in. She's essentially the whole emotion of the game, and she represents it perfectly. She advances the plot by helping Freeman and plotting out what needs to be done. There are also numerous situations in the game where Alyx adds emotion to an area that Gordon would otherwise pass through without any problem. She also adds some humor to a world that really hasn't seen any. It lightens the mood and tone of the game, even if the humor comes off as a bit stiff or awkward. She pretty much represents the human element in a world like this. In a world of revolution, she's one of the only people that tries to keep her humanity through a dire time. It also helps that her emotions, reactions, and dialogue is seen through the actual game, considering there aren't really any cutscenes throughout this game. Her AI only expands on her character, as it's one of the smartest in the whole game, and adds even more of a human element to her because she ACTS like one.

I honestly believe she had more influence on strong female characters, and I think that has to do mostly with what Half Life 2 as a whole did for the gaming industry. The game is famous just by the Source engine alone. 3 of Valve's biggest franchises were created from mods of Half Life 2, and pretty much all of Valve's games use this engine, or some modified version of it. The physics engine in Source was something unseen at the time Half Life 2 came out as well, as it evolved the physics that the first Half Life had. Gordon Freeman is one of the faces of gaming. Everything happens in real time, and there are no cutscenes. It had a change of atmosphere for video games at the time, which were mostly fantasy/sci-fi games, and an amazing story and narrative to boot. And i don't think i even need to go into how many GOTY awards and even Game of the Decade award(s?) this game has won.

And Alyx was one of the many things that made Half Life 2 such an amazing game. She added emotion, realism, and hope to a game and story that would've been mostly barren from it because of Gordon's silent nature, she was programmed with great AI, especially for a 2004 game, and had a great design and performance to go along with it.

(I didn't entirely get this by myself, as it's been a long while since I played Half Life 2, so I got some of this from these articles:
http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=2305
http://www.pressstarttodiscuss...ch-beloved.html
http://thebestgamesiteever.com...ed-half-life-2/
http://www.lordkat.com/blog/22...alyx-vance.html
these articles go into a bit more detail into Alyx. I didn't want to take too much from these articles, especially because I have a tendency to plagiarize things.)

EDIT:

Quote: sonicbrawler182

And before the influence is denied once again, please look at the discussions Rosalina caused back in the day. There's even a Gamasutra article on it (ignoring the misinterpretation of Rosalina being a princess, it's a really good read, as Gamasutra articles tend to be):

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/...torytelling.php
http://www.wired.com/2007/12/interview-super/

Thank you for finally giving some sources on this.

I did give other sources before, you must have ignored them.

As for Alyx, I will explain why she is terrible.

While she does break a few stereotypes like the damsel in distress one and the sexualised object one, she absolutely represents another in full force - the "girl next door" stereotype. And quite frankly, I feel she started the "waifu" craze in video games. She's the original waifu bait character.

The Girl Next Door trope entails a female character that isn't necessarily a romantic interest to the main character (but Alyx is one anyway), but is kinda like that supportive friend that may not be a supermodel material, but is reasonably cute and often flirts with the main character and has a very playful relationship, romantic or otherwise, with the main character.

Alyx Vance is the EPITOME of this stereotype. If characters like Ivy from Soul Calibur or even Princess Peach are considered representative of and encouraging of teenage power/dominant kinky porn fantasies, then Alyx Vance is basically "emotional porn" - she is a character that, right off the bat, has this crush on Gordon, is always trying to play with your heartstrings whether you like it or not, and is designed for you, the player, to quite literally, have a crush on her. She is designed to make you feel better about yourself, like she's your cute, casual, normal girlfriend that you don't actually have. She's also just as much a "reward" for completing challenges as Princess Peach might be - for everything you do in Half Life 2, you are rewarded with a flirtatious comment, smile, and maybe even a subtle shot of her nice/cute/sexy, but not over the top ass.

And the cherry on top of this problem? Alyx's romantic advances towards the player are done through romantic advances towards Gordon - a character who never speaks. A character who never acknowledges her at all, because he is not programmed to by the developers. When you remove the element of the player getting an emotional turn on by Alyx, she literally becomes this obsessive high school girl who won't get over the guy who doesn't even acknowledge her advances - which is a degrading fetish in and of itself.

Pretty much every teenage guy fantasizes over perfect, huge breasted ladies and what not who need rescuing or are really aggressive, and some video games definitely use that to their advantage.

However, every teenage guy probably fantasizes over having a normal, "relatable" girl even more so, especially when they are lonely. One that tugs their heartstrings, one that they can go get an ice cream with and maybe hang out at the beach with during sunset, and then maybe start kissing and getting more intimate with behind the bushes.

Alyx Vance is designed to appeal to that emotional fantasy of having a "relatable", "conceivable" girlfriend (especially since she's portrayed as an awkward geek herself) for lonely gamers, except she bypasses the need to actually pay attention to her feelings, as her only feelings are for YOU. My emotional response to everything she says and does could be completely mean-spirited and disregarding of her feelings, but she is still gonna love me despite that. Like I said, ultimate waifu bait.

And if you need proof that Alyx turned a lot of people on by pulling their heartstrings and having a bit of sexual flair subtly sprinkled in there?




Rule 34 image counts for Alyx Vance and Ivy from Soul Calibur. Also most Alyx porn doesn't exaggerate or change her body as porn of most other characters like Princess Peach does, most Alyx porn is made using her cute in-game model that people got emotionally attached to for all of the wrong reasons, or a nude edit of said model.

And I'm not the only one who has this opinion of Alyx:

http://onemorecontinue.com/alyx-vance-half-life-2/
https://electriccartilage.word...male-character/

And here is an exploration of the concept of agency, that gives multiple examples - and rightfully criticises Alyx as a character who literally has no agency, OR ego:
http://exploringbelievability....ter-agency.html

*cough* bayonetta *cough*

Quote: sonicbrawler182

I did give other sources before, you must have ignored them.

As far as I know, those were the only sources you gave to defend your point on Rosalina between this topic and the E3 topic, aside from those links to Nintendo sites about Rosalina basically telling us what we already know about her.

Unless i missed something big time which lets be honest this is me we're talking about here so that's possible

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The Girl Next Door trope entails a female character that isn't necessarily a romantic interest to the main character (but Alyx is one anyway), but is kinda like that supportive friend that may not be a supermodel material, but is reasonably cute and often flirts with the main character and has a very playful relationship, romantic or otherwise, with the main character.

Alyx Vance is the EPITOME of this stereotype. If characters like Ivy from Soul Calibur or even Princess Peach are considered representative of and encouraging of teenage power/dominant kinky porn fantasies, then Alyx Vance is basically "emotional porn" - she is a character that, right off the bat, has this crush on Gordon, is always trying to play with your heartstrings whether you like it or not, and is designed for you, the player, to quite literally, have a crush on her. She is designed to make you feel better about yourself, like she's your cute, casual, normal girlfriend that you don't actually have. She's also just as much a "reward" for completing challenges as Princess Peach might be - for everything you do in Half Life 2, you are rewarded with a flirtatious comment, smile, and maybe even a subtle shot of her nice/cute/sexy, but not over the top ass.

And the cherry on top of this problem? Alyx's romantic advances towards the player are done through romantic advances towards Gordon - a character who never speaks. A character who never acknowledges her at all, because he is not programmed to by the developers. When you remove the element of the player getting an emotional turn on by Alyx, she literally becomes this obsessive high school girl who won't get over the guy who doesn't even acknowledge her advances - which is a degrading fetish in and of itself.

...alright, fair point. Can't argue with the stereotype thing(even i found that a bit annoying throughout Half-Life 2). But even so, Alyx is pretty much the only driving emotional force in this game. Most of the other characters in this game are generic NPCs or are quickly forgotten, with the exception of Eli Vance, who isn't in this game that much, and Dr. Breen, who is the game's antagonist, and also isn't seen much throughout the game. Alyx is the only one that gives any form of emotion throughout Half Life 2's story, and she's pretty much the only one that drives the plot, for reasons I gave earlier.

Even though she is stereotypical in terms of how she reacts to Gordon(and therefore the player), What i think highlights the character is her personality beyond that. She's really the only character you interact with that has some form of development because the other characters are seen and talked about so little. She tries to keep her spirits high even in a dark setting like Half Life's. And i think that makes her a great character. She tries to keep her humanity in a setting that has mostly lost it.

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Alyx Vance is designed to appeal to that emotional fantasy of having a "relatable", "conceivable" girlfriend (especially since she's portrayed as an awkward geek herself) for lonely gamers, except she bypasses the need to actually pay attention to her feelings, as her only feelings are for YOU. My emotional response to everything she says and does could be completely mean-spirited and disregarding of her feelings, but she is still gonna love me despite that. Like I said, ultimate waifu bait.

Valve still succeeded in the area of making a relatable character. Making a relatable character is important in creating a decent one. Sure, the relation she had with Gordon was dumb, but we could still relate/understand her struggles in the game, such as being away from her father(as well as what happens at the end of HL2:E2, which I won't spoil even though the game is pretty old at this point).

Quote:

And if you need proof that Alyx turned a lot of people on by pulling their heartstrings and having a bit of sexual flair subtly sprinkled in there?




Rule 34 image counts for Alyx Vance and Ivy from Soul Calibur. Also most Alyx porn doesn't exaggerate or change her body as porn of most other characters like Princess Peach does, most Alyx porn is made using her cute in-game model that people got emotionally attached to for all of the wrong reasons, or a nude edit of said model.

Okay dude, I get that you hate Alyx, but can you please not bring in Rule 34 as an example if you're going to make that argument?

To each their own I guess. She isn't one of my favorites, but I still stand by thinking Alyx is a great character in the Half Life series.

They didn't succeed in making a relatable, realistic character.

A grown adult fawning over a man she saw once when she was 5 is not "relatable", especially when no explanation is given in-game as to why. Everything she does in the game revolves around Gordon henceforth, so it's basically her entire character in the game too.

The Rule 34 comparison was me making the point that Valve only ever intended for Alyx to appeal to lonely teenagers who have an emotional thirst as well as a sexual one, and they succeeded in spades (again, while it's common for characters to get a load of Rule 34 even if they don't do anything sexual or dress in a provocative way, Alyx is a special case in that the majority of her dirty images created by fans use her official model, which represents the waifu they got emotionally attached to.... oh, and some of it takes the piss, made by people who don't like Alyx and are sick of all of the unwarranted praise she gets). She was never supposed to be this amazing, progressive female character. From a technical standpoint, Valve used Alyx to show off the facial animation technology of Half-Life 2's engine (they've even said this outright, plus you can see it throughout the game - there are quite a few moments where she's right in your face or you are drawn to observe her).

She isn't this amazing, progressive, realistic, or relatable character (how can she be when she has literally no agency OR ego?). And she was never intended to be that. She's a tech demo that was designed to pull the heartstrings of the game's demographic (i.e. teenage boys), and since there was no other female character with such realistic physical expression in a video game at the time, she succeeded in spades and captured the hearts of emotionally thirsty teenage boys. She doesn't capture your heart through having genuine agency and ego and through actually seeming like a real person. She is basically a primitive VR wish fulfillment program.

And she has just enough sex appeal to go along with it too.