darkSpyro

Rosalina can KO Bowser at a more consistent rate EARLIER than Bowser can consistently KO her. Rosalina's damage output when she has Luma is at Ganondorf's damage output levels (and because Bowser is so big and heavy, getting him into something like a basic jab combo between Rosalina and Luma and trapping him in it is incredibly easy, and can tack on over 40% damage even if Bowser tries to SDI/Hitstun Shuffle out of it), and she has extremely strong KO moves. She can U-air Bowser for a top blast zone KO at 60% (at the least, it could be lower though - that's also assuming FD, if Rosalina has platforms to use, her U-air KOs get even more ridiculously early), not to mention she can easily send him into the air and pressure him off stage. So no, Rosalina is the more powerful one here. And as mentioned before, she never HAS to approach Bowser, though approaching him is very safe anyway. This is both with or without Luma.

Also I'll have you know a friend of mine mains Bowser through all Smash games he has been in, and he won a Smash 3DS tournament with him (note: there were no Rosalina players in the tournament - I believe his final opponent was R.O.B). So It's not like I'm talking based on a few poor players on For Glory, I have a lot of experience with the match up, as does he. He agrees that Rosalina completely dominates Bowser, and to put it as he does, Rosalina is basically Bowser's "final boss".

You keep saying "speed is irrelevant" and "there's always a way to counter something", but you fail to prove anything. Everything you are saying are just statements with no substance, I wouldn't even count it as theory crafting.

*prepares for major hate*

Quote: I-Brawler

Reveal Spoiler

I can't believe this argument is still going.

brawler, try to stop treating Rosalina like she's a god with answers to everything. True, Bowser can be combo'd easily by her, but is by far not going to be killed that easy, unless really close to the blast line. Bowser is actually much more of a threat offstage this game, and with Rosalina's weight makes it easy to launch her.

Mugo, speed is more than relevant in every scenario for comboing purposes, Fox greatly excelled at this in Melee and actually did have good launching power, I have no idea where you get the idea that he doesn't from. Giving an example would be nice.

I'm not trying to hate on either of you right now, but this conversation is going nowhere the way you two are going at it.
(if you have any responses i'll be glad to answer them)

*prepares for major hate*

100% this

Quote:

brawler, try to stop treating Rosalina like she's a god with answers to everything.

OH WOW

THE OBJECTIVELY BEST CHARACTER IN A FIGHTING GAME ACCORDING TO COLLECTED DATA SHUTS DOWN A LOT OF OTHER CHARACTERS, WHO'D HAVE GUESSED?

STOP THE PRESSES, IT'S A BREAK THROUGH

Quote:

True, Bowser can be combo'd easily by her, but is by far not going to be killed that easy, unless really close to the blast line.

As I said, Rosalina can KO Bowser as early as 60% with her sweet spotted U-air, on FD.

An example of how powerful that move is:



And that's against Marth, who's harder to hit than Bowser is. Bowser goes out at around the percent I hit Marth out there, though.

Rosalina and Luma have plenty of options for KO's in general, and Bowser suffers badly from them because he is so easy to hit. He's also real easy to gimp.

Like I'm not even stating opinions here, this is very common knowledge. Heavyweights just never do well in Smash, and with Rosalina specifically, heavyweights or large characters in general (like Mewtwo) are Rosalina's favourite opponents. The only one of them who can do decently well against her is R.O.B, but even that match up is still in Rosalina's favour.

And just so you know, when I am talking about match ups and what not, I am assuming both players are both of high skill level, and are both equal in general fundamental reflexes and strategies.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Rosalina can KO Bowser at a more consistent rate EARLIER than Bowser can consistently KO her. Rosalina's damage output when she has Luma is at Ganondorf's damage output levels (and because Bowser is so big and heavy, getting him into something like a basic jab combo between Rosalina and Luma and trapping him in it is incredibly easy, and can tack on over 40% damage even if Bowser tries to SDI/Hitstun Shuffle out of it), and she has extremely strong KO moves. She can U-air Bowser for a top blast zone KO at 60% (at the least, it could be lower though - that's also assuming FD, if Rosalina has platforms to use, her U-air KOs get even more ridiculously early), not to mention she can easily send him into the air and pressure him off stage. So no, Rosalina is the more powerful one here. And as mentioned before, she never HAS to approach Bowser, though approaching him is very safe anyway. This is both with or without Luma.

Also I'll have you know a friend of mine mains Bowser through all Smash games he has been in, and he won a Smash 3DS tournament with him (note: there were no Rosalina players in the tournament - I believe his final opponent was R.O.. So It's not like I'm talking based on a few poor players on For Glory, I have a lot of experience with the match up, as does he. He agrees that Rosalina completely dominates Bowser, and to put it as he does, Rosalina is basically Bowser's "final boss".

You keep saying "speed is irrelevant" and "there's always a way to counter something", but you fail to prove anything. Everything you are saying are just statements with no substance, I wouldn't even count it as theory crafting.

Everything you just said about Rosalina is complete B.S. that you made up to try and prove your wrong point correct. While Rosalina CAN be one of the best characters in the game and I do not doubt her spot at the top, most of what you just said about her is still made up. (Not to mention it still takes her a lot more effort to KO Bowser than it does for Bowser to KO her.)

I'm pretty good at Smash when I want to be. I can't say I am the best player ever, but on a good day I can be pretty good. Rosalina being Bowser's final boss? There's no doubt Rosalina's a good character, but domination is another thing entirely.

Because the "theory" really doesn't need proving: it's common sense. You go up against Sonic of Zero Suit Samus, and yeah they are really fast, but for both their main way of getting an attack out is through just going up to someone and wailing on them due to the fact their main special moves are pretty predictable. No matter how fast a character is, the opponent uses the right moves, they can counter an opponent regardless of speed. Bowser's a big character, and I've been down that road where I've had a hard time dodging their moves, but I've found ways to do so. No one can keep on a character forever, no matter how good they are, and perfect shielding upon landing is one way any character, no matter how big and bulky, can get a chance at an escape. Most of the fast characters are also quite light and can be killed in only a few hits if you use a character right.

Quote: I-Brawler

Reveal Spoiler

I can't believe this argument is still going.
Mugo, speed is more than relevant in every scenario for comboing purposes, Fox greatly excelled at this in Melee and actually did have good launching power, I have no idea where you get the idea that he doesn't from. Giving an example would be nice.

*prepares for major hate*

It's not as relevant as it's made out to be is my point. Plus, as I've mentioned before, most characters have a way of bypassing that barrier. It's priorities aren't perfect, so being hit with a priority move or a long weapon is key to getting by it. And one you figure out how to bypass Fox's barrier, he has nothing left to use but his useless attacks.

Also, his smash attacks are among the weakest in the game, despite what a certain someone seems to think.

Quote:

Everything you just said about Rosalina is complete B.S. that you made up to try and prove your wrong point correct. While Rosalina CAN be one of the best characters in the game and I do not doubt her spot at the top, most of what you just said about her is still made up. (Not to mention it still takes her a lot more effort to KO Bowser than it does for Bowser to KO her.)

Care to prove me wrong with some objective data, then?

Quote:

You go up against Sonic of Zero Suit Samus, and yeah they are really fast, but for both their main way of getting an attack out is through just going up to someone and wailing on them due to the fact their main special moves are pretty predictable.

Oh my god you do not even know anything about these characters

Sonic COMPLETELY controls the pace of a battle. Literally. He never has to approach either, because he's literally the fastest character in the game in sheer running speed. You can't force a character that's that fast to do anything, especially when they have a move that literally makes them a fast moving, high priority hitbox that starts combos. They weave in and out as they please. Similarly, ZSS actually does have some mid-ranged attacks, and has that invincibility granting Down B.

Also how are Sonic's specials predictable? Three of them literally look identical on start-up, and even sound identical. And his Up-B pops out in an instant with no telegraphing, and grants him invincibility frames.

Honestly, I rather agree with I-Brawler. We keep going through this same argument even from the last topic. MugoUrth says how he thinks speed is mostly a crap stat and he can pwn with the severely overlooked Bowser. Sonicbrawler comes back saying how speed is amazing and Rosalina is beyond god tier and can beat everyone, any time. Then you argue for a few pages over who's right with both standing by their principals.

Truly, it all comes down to the player. I tried Rosalina, not too good with her. If brawler can do good with her, good for him. If MugoUrth doesn't care for the speed stat and prefers playing beefy power-houses, that's his play style, power to him. I'm tired of seeing these same arguments page after page, bickering on end over your opinion of who's strongest. Tiers are mostly bull **** anyway, as anyone with the right amount of skill could truly beat anyone with the the character they're good with.

You think ____ is best, he thinks _____ is best. That's your opinions and who you are good at playing at. Can't we all just get along and peacefully beat the **** out of each other in a game?

Quote: Seiki

Honestly, I rather agree with I-Brawler. We keep going through this same argument even from the last topic. MugoUrth says how he thinks speed is mostly a crap stat and he can pwn with the severely overlooked Bowser. Sonicbrawler comes back saying how speed is amazing and Rosalina is beyond god tier and can beat everyone, any time. Then you argue for a few pages over who's right with both standing by their principals.

Truly, it all comes down to the player. I tried Rosalina, not too good with her. If brawler can do good with her, good for him. If MugoUrth doesn't care for the speed stat and prefers playing beefy power-houses, that's his play style, power to him. I'm tired of seeing these same arguments page after page, bickering on end over your opinion of who's strongest. Tiers are mostly bull **** anyway, as anyone with the right amount of skill could truly beat anyone with the the character they're good with.

You think ____ is best, he thinks _____ is best. That's your opinions and who you are good at playing at. Can't we all just get along and peacefully beat the **** out of each other in a game?

Yeah let's just stop arguing. If you think it's so super necessary to argue, take it to PM or something.

ALL OF YOU SHUT UP! THE BEST CHARACTER COUNTS ON YOUR PLAY STYLE!

Quote: Sleepy0429

ALL OF YOU SHUT UP! THE BEST CHARACTER COUNTS ON YOUR PLAY STYLE!

Was that really needed?

Quote: Seiki

Honestly, I rather agree with I-Brawler. We keep going through this same argument even from the last topic. MugoUrth says how he thinks speed is mostly a crap stat and he can pwn with the severely overlooked Bowser. Sonicbrawler comes back saying how speed is amazing and Rosalina is beyond god tier and can beat everyone, any time. Then you argue for a few pages over who's right with both standing by their principals.

Truly, it all comes down to the player. I tried Rosalina, not too good with her. If brawler can do good with her, good for him. If MugoUrth doesn't care for the speed stat and prefers playing beefy power-houses, that's his play style, power to him. I'm tired of seeing these same arguments page after page, bickering on end over your opinion of who's strongest. Tiers are mostly bull **** anyway, as anyone with the right amount of skill could truly beat anyone with the the character they're good with.

You think ____ is best, he thinks _____ is best. That's your opinions and who you are good at playing at. Can't we all just get along and peacefully beat the **** out of each other in a game?

Thank you, Seiki.

Seriously guys, what are you trying to prove by arguing this? Just because a lot of people collectively agree that a character is the best or one of the worst doesn't mean it is. It all varies depending on player skill. I can't do anything with a high tier character like Diddy Kong, but I've gotten much better online with Meta Knight lately. He's one of the lower tier characters, let alone the most nerfed character in the game(because of how overpowered he was in Brawl), yet I've brought up my For Glory win rate almost 30% since i started maining him. I've also won my fair share of matches with my other mains in Kirby, Ness, ROB, Lucina, and Pit. Skill varies for every player, which means character skill varies as well. Someone can be absolute crap with a character like Rosalina, but at the same time can do amazing with a character like Bowser.

Not to mention tier lists are supposed to reflect what a collective amount of players THINK are the best and worst characters. not what ARE the best and worst ones. It's different with past games like Brawl and Melee, since characters like Fox and Meta Knight were very clearly unbalanced and broken. but this game is different because it actually has the capability to be balanced, meaning tier lists are going to constantly change. And with each update, people are going to change what they perceive to be the best character, and all of that is based on overall skill of the character and skill of the player.

Quote: pankakesparx456

Quote: Seiki

Honestly, I rather agree with I-Brawler. We keep going through this same argument even from the last topic. MugoUrth says how he thinks speed is mostly a crap stat and he can pwn with the severely overlooked Bowser. Sonicbrawler comes back saying how speed is amazing and Rosalina is beyond god tier and can beat everyone, any time. Then you argue for a few pages over who's right with both standing by their principals.

Truly, it all comes down to the player. I tried Rosalina, not too good with her. If brawler can do good with her, good for him. If MugoUrth doesn't care for the speed stat and prefers playing beefy power-houses, that's his play style, power to him. I'm tired of seeing these same arguments page after page, bickering on end over your opinion of who's strongest. Tiers are mostly bull **** anyway, as anyone with the right amount of skill could truly beat anyone with the the character they're good with.

You think ____ is best, he thinks _____ is best. That's your opinions and who you are good at playing at. Can't we all just get along and peacefully beat the **** out of each other in a game?

Thank you, Seiki.

Seriously guys, what are you trying to prove by arguing this? Just because a lot of people collectively agree that a character is the best or one of the worst doesn't mean it is. It all varies depending on player skill. I can't do anything with a high tier character like Diddy Kong, but I've gotten much better online with Meta Knight lately. He's one of the lower tier characters, let alone the most nerfed character in the game(because of how overpowered he was in Brawl), yet I've brought up my For Glory win rate almost 30% since i started maining him. I've also won my fair share of matches with my other mains in Kirby, Ness, ROB, Lucina, and Pit. Skill varies for every player, which means character skill varies as well. Someone can be absolute crap with a character like Rosalina, but at the same time can do amazing with a character like Bowser.

Not to mention tier lists are supposed to reflect what a collective amount of players THINK are the best and worst characters. not what ARE the best and worst ones. It's different with past games like Brawl and Melee, since characters like Fox and Meta Knight were very clearly unbalanced and broken. but this game is different because it actually has the capability to be balanced, meaning tier lists are going to constantly change. And with each update, people are going to change what they perceive to be the best character, and all of that is based on overall skill of the character and skill of the player.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this argument.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote:

Everything you just said about Rosalina is complete B.S. that you made up to try and prove your wrong point correct. While Rosalina CAN be one of the best characters in the game and I do not doubt her spot at the top, most of what you just said about her is still made up. (Not to mention it still takes her a lot more effort to KO Bowser than it does for Bowser to KO her.)

Care to prove me wrong with some objective data, then?

You've never really gave credible data yourself: just a bunch of fabrications and stretching of the truth.

Also Sonic has no real moves that allow him to attack from a range, nor moves that are terribly difficult to predict.

Quote: MugoUrth

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote:

Everything you just said about Rosalina is complete B.S. that you made up to try and prove your wrong point correct. While Rosalina CAN be one of the best characters in the game and I do not doubt her spot at the top, most of what you just said about her is still made up. (Not to mention it still takes her a lot more effort to KO Bowser than it does for Bowser to KO her.)

Care to prove me wrong with some objective data, then?

You've never really gave credible data yourself: just a bunch of fabrications and stretching of the truth.

Also Sonic has no real moves that allow him to attack from a range, nor moves that are terribly difficult to predict.

Keep telling yourself that all you like, it isn't going to change the fact that everything I said is the truth and nothing but, and it was indeed supported by data and a video example (that I myself recorded raw from a replay I had saved - oh wait, you're gonna tell me I modded the game now to increase the knockback of Rosalina's U-air, is that it? :V).

And Sonic doesn't need ranged attacks when he is as fast as he is. Sonic can approach faster than almost any other projectile in the game, so if you can get someone with Samus' charged blaster, for example, you can get them with a Spin Dash and trap them in a combo from there.

------------

@Everyone else:

Why are you all complaining when all were are doing is trying to have a discussion?

Nothing being said here is breaking any rules. And if I am reading the topic title correctly, does it not say "Official All Purpose Topic"? Does this not include the discussion of the game's competitive meta?

This topic is very slow besides when a discussion like this is taking place. Currently, there is nothing going on with Smash in terms of news since the April Direct, and there is not much more that can be said about that - Mewtwo is out and we've talked about that, Lucas has still got but one trailer out, we've had a vague hint of new modes, and we have had a balance patch that we've all talked about a little bit.

Keep whinging about me holding a constructive discussion (i.e. - I am disproving false claims about various match ups) all you want, but I don't see any of you even attempting to hold a discussion about anything else. You are by all means free to do so. We can hold multiples discussions at once in this topic. It's less than ideal to do so, but it's not unfathomable, and if you want to have dedicated discussions about very particular things in Smash, and only those things, then join a bloody Smash Bros forum and start a thread about your topic of choice.

Quote:

THE BEST CHARACTER COUNTS ON YOUR PLAY STYLE!

Everyone has their own personal best character based on their personal preferred playstyles, but that doesn't mean there aren't characters much better than them objectively. For example, I mained Sonic in Brawl, and I was better at using him than any other character in the game. But Meta Knight is still far better than Sonic is in that game. If I put the time required in to master Meta Knight in Brawl, as I did with Sonic, then if I went to two Brawl tournaments, one where I only used Sonic and one where I only used Meta Knight, I would be more likely to win the one where I played as Meta Knight, because Meta Knight has literally no negative match ups in Brawl (hence, he was banned in many tournaments), while Sonic has quite a few.

Quote:

Not to mention tier lists are supposed to reflect what a collective amount of players THINK are the best and worst characters. not what ARE the best and worst ones.

You've been looking at too much EventHubs. Which isn't a real tier list, by the way.

Tier lists are not supposed to reflect public opinion, at all. Tier lists are actually set in place by an extreme minority. The main points that decide a character's placement on a Smash tier list are:

-Objective pieces of data when taken relative to one another (frame data, damage output, launch power, longevity, versatility, special attributes, etc. The "relative" means, for example, weighing the damage and knockback of an aerial against it's start up time, ending lag, and landing lag - A move that does 10% and solid knockback with little start up, end lag, and landing lag, is always going to be the better move than one that does 5% damage and little knockback yet has twice the start up lag, end lag, and landing lag as the first move).

-Match-up spread (a character with a lot of favourable match-ups is better than one with a lot of unfavourable match-ups)

-Skill Ceiling (How far you can go with a character - Rosalina wins in this regard hands down, as most people will agree her full potential has not been close to realised, as so many players play her very safe and keep Luma close, but don't experiment with what Luma can do when left to roam separately. Plus, Rosalina has a lot of advanced techniques exclusive to her - by contrast, Bowser has a low skill ceiling. He doesn't have any advanced techniques unique to him, and many of the general advanced techniques universal to all characters honestly don't help him at all).

-Skill Floor (some characters are just inherently easier to master than others. If you want to talk pure potential and data, Rosalina was always the best character in the game, but Diddy and Sheik were considered better overall before the recent patch, due to the simple fact they had such a low skill floor, while Rosalina's is very high).

The extreme minority of people who can provide these tier lists are data miners and professional players.

Quote:

@Everyone else:

Why are you all complaining when all were are doing is trying to have a discussion?

Nothing being said here is breaking any rules. And if I am reading the topic title correctly, does it not say "Official All Purpose Topic"? Does this not include the discussion of the game's competitive meta?

This topic is very slow besides when a discussion like this is taking place. Currently, there is nothing going on with Smash in terms of news since the April Direct, and there is not much more that can be said about that - Mewtwo is out and we've talked about that, Lucas has still got but one trailer out, we've had a vague hint of new modes, and we have had a balance patch that we've all talked about a little bit.

Keep whinging about me holding a constructive discussion (i.e. - I am disproving false claims about various match ups) all you want, but I don't see any of you even attempting to hold a discussion about anything else. You are by all means free to do so. We can hold multiples discussions at once in this topic. It's less than ideal to do so, but it's not unfathomable, and if you want to have dedicated discussions about very particular things in Smash, and only those things, then join a bloody Smash Bros forum and start a thread about your topic of choice.

I'm only complaining because no one else can have a discussion. Whenever we try to it just gets buried by this one between you and MugoUrt. And whenever I try to join in on the conversation, I just get ignored >.>

Quote: Mesuxelf

Quote:

@Everyone else:

Why are you all complaining when all were are doing is trying to have a discussion?

Nothing being said here is breaking any rules. And if I am reading the topic title correctly, does it not say "Official All Purpose Topic"? Does this not include the discussion of the game's competitive meta?

This topic is very slow besides when a discussion like this is taking place. Currently, there is nothing going on with Smash in terms of news since the April Direct, and there is not much more that can be said about that - Mewtwo is out and we've talked about that, Lucas has still got but one trailer out, we've had a vague hint of new modes, and we have had a balance patch that we've all talked about a little bit.

Keep whinging about me holding a constructive discussion (i.e. - I am disproving false claims about various match ups) all you want, but I don't see any of you even attempting to hold a discussion about anything else. You are by all means free to do so. We can hold multiples discussions at once in this topic. It's less than ideal to do so, but it's not unfathomable, and if you want to have dedicated discussions about very particular things in Smash, and only those things, then join a bloody Smash Bros forum and start a thread about your topic of choice.

I'm only complaining because no one else can have a discussion. Whenever we try to it just gets buried by this one between you and MugoUrt. And whenever I try to join in on the conversation, I just get ignored >.>

It doesn't get buried.

Your posts and the posts of everyone else are there in the topic to respond to. If people don't feel like responding to your posts, that is not the fault of whatever other discussion is happening in the thread. Either people just don't have anything to add, or they didn't read it. The former is at the user's discretion, the latter is just them being ignorant.

In my case, I've read your posts on this page but I don't have much I feel I need to add, nor do I feel like countering them in any manner, for one reason or another.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote: Mesuxelf

Quote:

@Everyone else:

Why are you all complaining when all were are doing is trying to have a discussion?

Nothing being said here is breaking any rules. And if I am reading the topic title correctly, does it not say "Official All Purpose Topic"? Does this not include the discussion of the game's competitive meta?

This topic is very slow besides when a discussion like this is taking place. Currently, there is nothing going on with Smash in terms of news since the April Direct, and there is not much more that can be said about that - Mewtwo is out and we've talked about that, Lucas has still got but one trailer out, we've had a vague hint of new modes, and we have had a balance patch that we've all talked about a little bit.

Keep whinging about me holding a constructive discussion (i.e. - I am disproving false claims about various match ups) all you want, but I don't see any of you even attempting to hold a discussion about anything else. You are by all means free to do so. We can hold multiples discussions at once in this topic. It's less than ideal to do so, but it's not unfathomable, and if you want to have dedicated discussions about very particular things in Smash, and only those things, then join a bloody Smash Bros forum and start a thread about your topic of choice.

I'm only complaining because no one else can have a discussion. Whenever we try to it just gets buried by this one between you and MugoUrt. And whenever I try to join in on the conversation, I just get ignored >.>

It doesn't get buried.

Your posts and the posts of everyone else are there in the topic to respond to. If people don't feel like responding to your posts, that is not the fault of whatever other discussion is happening in the thread. Either people just don't have anything to add, or they didn't read it. The former is at the user's discretion, the latter is just them being ignorant.

In my case, I've read your posts on this page but I don't have much I feel I need to add, nor do I feel like countering them in any manner, for one reason or another.

Understood.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Keep whinging about me holding a constructive discussion (i.e. - I am disproving false claims about various match ups) all you want, but I don't see any of you even attempting to hold a discussion about anything else.

i'm probably going to regret posting this but i really need to point this out because this really bugs me:

There's nothing constructive about the way you or MugoUrth is handing this discussion. Look at the banter you two have been exchanging.

Quote: MugoUrth

And yes, it IS true.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

You keep saying "speed is irrelevant" and "there's always a way to counter something", but you fail to prove anything. Everything you are saying are just statements with no substance, I wouldn't even count it as theory crafting.

Quote: MugoUrth

Everything you just said about Rosalina is complete B.S. that you made up to try and prove your wrong point correct. While Rosalina CAN be one of the best characters in the game and I do not doubt her spot at the top, most of what you just said about her is still made up.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Oh my god you do not even know anything about these characters

Quote: MugoUrth

You've never really gave credible data yourself: just a bunch of fabrications and stretching of the truth.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Keep telling yourself that all you like, it isn't going to change the fact that everything I said is the truth and nothing but, and it was indeed supported by data and a video example (that I myself recorded raw from a replay I had saved - oh wait, you're gonna tell me I modded the game now to increase the knockback of Rosalina's U-air, is that it? :V).

Both of you guys are going back and forth with this, and are insisting "I'm right, you're wrong." This is not how you have a constructive discussion. You need to be respectful of what the other is saying in a discussion like this. Instead, both of you are hell-bent on saying that what you're saying is pure truth, when it's really just a matter of opinion and skill, because as i said earlier, every player is different in what characters they can play and what they can pull of with those characters. This "I'm right" mentality both of you guys have makes you come off as jerks.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote:

Not to mention tier lists are supposed to reflect what a collective amount of players THINK are the best and worst characters. not what ARE the best and worst ones.

You've been looking at too much EventHubs. Which isn't a real tier list, by the way.

Tier lists are not supposed to reflect public opinion, at all. Tier lists are actually set in place by an extreme minority.
...
The extreme minority of people who can provide these tier lists are data miners and professional players.

I'm not going to argue with data numbers, but if those lists are made by a minority, then honestly i think that makes tier lists even more irrelevant. those professional players aren't everyone else. What they can accomplish doesn't come close to what other players can do.

IMO tier lists should serve as a reflection of what people think are the best and worst characters, not who are the best characters, because everyone brings a different play style to each character, and every single one of them is able to beat any other with the right amount of skill. but that's just me.

Quote:

The main points that decide a character's placement on a Smash tier list are:

-Objective pieces of data when taken relative to one another (frame data, damage output, launch power, longevity, versatility, special attributes, etc. The "relative" means, for example, weighing the damage and knockback of an aerial against it's start up time, ending lag, and landing lag - A move that does 10% and solid knockback with little start up, end lag, and landing lag, is always going to be the better move than one that does 5% damage and little knockback yet has twice the start up lag, end lag, and landing lag as the first move).

-Match-up spread (a character with a lot of favourable match-ups is better than one with a lot of unfavourable match-ups)

-Skill Ceiling (How far you can go with a character - Rosalina wins in this regard hands down, as most people will agree her full potential has not been close to realised, as so many players play her very safe and keep Luma close, but don't experiment with what Luma can do when left to roam separately. Plus, Rosalina has a lot of advanced techniques exclusive to her - by contrast, Bowser has a low skill ceiling. He doesn't have any advanced techniques unique to him, and many of the general advanced techniques universal to all characters honestly don't help him at all).

-Skill Floor (some characters are just inherently easier to master than others. If you want to talk pure potential and data, Rosalina was always the best character in the game, but Diddy and Sheik were considered better overall before the recent patch, due to the simple fact they had such a low skill floor, while Rosalina's is very high).

where did you even find data for this? I'm actually curious.

Why is this topic literally just arguing.

Screw you the best characters is Mii Swordsman! His speed is incredible yet his attack stat is off the roof! He has great recovery and doesn't suffer from end lag. His up tilt can KO at a low percentage and can dodge easily. He is very bulky like Bowser but has a small hitbox like Kirby. Mii Swordsman is too op. Please nerf.

Quote: Underian

Why is this topic literally just arguing.

SB182 is argumentative and argues with anyone who doesn't like his opinion so

I think this is something worth reading: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Se...stence_of_Tiers
I do think tiers exist. Some characters are overall better than others, unfortunately. Nonetheless, I encourage everyone to play as who they want and not care where their characters are placed. It's not impossible to win with low-tier characters; you just have to work harder. That's usually difficult to do at the highest level of competitive play, but since most of us are not at that level, it really doesn't matter.

Quote: A10theHero

I think this is something worth reading: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Se...stence_of_Tiers
I do think tiers exist. Some characters are overall better than others, unfortunately. Nonetheless, I encourage everyone to play as who they want and not care where their characters are placed. It's not impossible to win with low-tier characters; you just have to work harder. That's usually difficult to do at the highest level of competitive play, but since most of us are not at that level, it really doesn't matter.

Reveal Spoiler

And just saying, Pikachu is the very best like no one ever was! :P

I play like **** with Rosalina. Does that make her low tier?

I play amazing with Meta Knight. Does that make him high tier? (again)

No, it doesn't, and why I find this line inaccurate is because, just because you're using a high tier character, doesn't mean it's easy to use them. :|

Please stop with this discussion/argument.

Tiers are dirty sometimes, and are influenced on popularity. Diddy Kong shot up the tier list recently. Why? Because of the Hoo Hah meme that was spreading like wildfire, and because of ONE single combo that was considered un-counterable.

Little Mac can't recover well? Low tier, even though he has a large amount of moves that can KO at 55%. Why is he low tier? His Side-B, yet another meme, and the fact that people consider him a "noob character."


Don't take the tier list as an enforced rule, it isn't. It's fuelled by opinions. Use whoever you want, and go againt the tier list.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote: MugoUrth

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Care to prove me wrong with some objective data, then?

You've never really gave credible data yourself: just a bunch of fabrications and stretching of the truth.

Also Sonic has no real moves that allow him to attack from a range, nor moves that are terribly difficult to predict.

Keep telling yourself that all you like, it isn't going to change the fact that everything I said is the truth and nothing but, and it was indeed supported by data and a video example (that I myself recorded raw from a replay I had saved - oh wait, you're gonna tell me I modded the game now to increase the knockback of Rosalina's U-air, is that it? :V).

And Sonic doesn't need ranged attacks when he is as fast as he is. Sonic can approach faster than almost any other projectile in the game, so if you can get someone with Samus' charged blaster, for example, you can get them with a Spin Dash and trap them in a combo from there.

No, it's not the truth idiot. Seriously. You're just a stupid speed*** who actually knows very little of the game, and uses stretched logic just to prove their point that really isn't credible. And no, you NEVER provided proof, just bull****. Also, I watched your video and yeah you DID mod it. I tried the same trick in the game, and the SAME MOVE YOU MENTIONED KOs Bowser at almost twice what you specified.

No matter how fast a character is, their moves can be blocked and countered by ANY character no matter how ****ing slow they are. There isn't a reliable move ANY CHARACTER HAS that cannot be countered. Sonic uses one of his two Spin Dashes, he leaves himself open. He goes into attack, the opponent dodges, they can STILL get in an attack on Sonic. His speed doesn't change that. Stop treating Speed as if it means everything, because it means a hell of a lot less than you speed***s would like to think.

Quote: Matteomax

Please stop with this discussion/argument.

Tiers are dirty sometimes, and are influenced on popularity. Diddy Kong shot up the tier list recently. Why? Because of the Hoo Hah meme that was spreading like wildfire, and because of ONE single combo that was considered un-counterable.

Little Mac can't recover well? Low tier, even though he has a large amount of moves that can KO at 55%. Why is he low tier? His Side-B, yet another meme, and the fact that people consider him a "noob character."

Don't take the tier list as an enforced rule, it isn't. It's fuelled by opinions. Use whoever you want, and go againt the tier list.

Yeah, I've made the grave mistake of underestimating Little Mac before, especially one time I fought a Little Mac player with Pac Man, and I ended up messing up and loosing my first life before I could even deal a percentage of damage to him AND I STILL ENDED UP WINNING. ...And then the next few fights against Little Mac players ended poorly for me.

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There's nothing constructive about the way you or MugoUrth is handing this discussion. Look at the banter you two have been exchanging.

Way to cut out the rest of my posts. Whenever I say something like that, I always follow up with reasons and evidence. I'm not saying things like that to be a ****, I legitimately believe MugoUrth understands this game way less than he/she thinks he/she does, and they are also making most of their points out of "I have to be the 1% because that's better" mentality. Not only that, but the information they are spreading is incorrect and I hate the spreading of incorrect information when it comes to something like a game's competitive meta game.


Also I'm not insisting "I'm right" for my ego, I have provided objective data from the game. This data is indisputable. It's not my opinions that this data represents. This data represents facts, things you can't have opinions on. You can't have the opinion "Bowser is just as good as a character like Rosalina" when all objective data says otherwise. It's not an opinionated matter in the slightest. Saying "I personally like Bowser better than Rosalina" is fine, because that is based off of not understanding how to use Rosalina as opposed to Bowser, or just not appreciating how she plays, but saying something like "the playing field between these two characters is even and Bowser can beat Rosalina by being really good at dodging" is wrong, because Rosalina has so many clear advantages against Bowser, and Bowser has a bad dodge roll and a bad air dodge, and is just huge, so you can't exactly dodge well with Bowser. Especially when Rosalina has a lot of attacks with long lasting hitboxes, meaning she could whiff the beginning of an attack, but still catch you with the end of it.

MugoUrth on the other hand is just flinging statements with no basis whatsoever, case in point:

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Also, I watched your video and yeah you DID mod it. I tried the same trick in the game, and the SAME MOVE YOU MENTIONED KOs Bowser at almost twice what you specified.

Good one, m8head. You probably hit with Luma's U-air, or didn't hit the sweetspot of Rosalina's. Or you're just lying. Your statement means nothing without evidence anyway.

Literally not even gonna respond to the rest of your posts by the way, MugoUrth. Because you're clearly intent on spreading false information, right down to falsely accusing me of something that is both impossible for ANYONE to do right now, and would be impossible for me personally even if it was possible. I can't mod vidya.

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i'm not going to argue with data numbers, but if those lists are made by a minority, then honestly i think that makes tier lists even more irrelevant. those professional players aren't everyone else. What they can accomplish doesn't come close to what other players can do.

...I've never read something so bass ackwards in my life...

These lists are made by the minority because:

1) A professional player is hands down going to be better than non-professional players. They literally play the game for a living.
2) Data miners can provide indisputable knowledge on what is and isn't possible for the characters in the game, and can compare and contrast data.

While there are isolated, oddball cases of unfair attempts at tampering with a character's position (one of the top Rosalina players, Dabuz, doesn't believe she's top tier, but that's because he plays her in a specific, defense oriented way, and while he's mastered that and it gets him wins, it makes certain match ups very poor for him, as he refuses to adapt and use Rosalina in the many other ways she can be used, and only makes a move when he's 100% sure he will land it. There's also suspicions he's saying it simply to make scrubs stop complaining about the character, so he can use her without being hated on for his defense-oriented playstyle), these are few and far between, and are often ignored.

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IMO tier lists should serve as a reflection of what people think are the best and worst characters

In that case you'll love EventHubs. :V

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where did you even find data for this? I'm actually curious.

Data for individual characters can be found on all sorts of sites like Smashboards, and those things that dictate how an official tier list are formed are tried and true traditions in Smash, and in most other fighting games actually. They are the best way to determine who the best characters are in competitive play, so they are used for that reason.

A tier list isn't explicitly saying who the best characters in the game are. It's more saying "who you'll have the easiest time winning with, and who is currently winning the most". Though it goes without saying that this would automatically mean the top 10 characters or so are the 10 best. The only discrepancies you might find are a character like Rosalina not being at the very top of a tier list despite being the best in the game, due to her being harder to use than other top tiers.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote:

Also, I watched your video and yeah you DID mod it. I tried the same trick in the game, and the SAME MOVE YOU MENTIONED KOs Bowser at almost twice what you specified.

Good one, m8head. You probably hit with Luma's U-air, or didn't hit the sweetspot of Rosalina's. Or you're just lying. Your statement means nothing without evidence anyway.

Literally not even gonna respond to the rest of your posts by the way, MugoUrth. Because you're clearly intent on spreading false information, right down to falsely accusing me of something that is both impossible for ANYONE to do right now, and would be impossible for me personally even if it was possible. I can't mod vidya.

Actually, it's not impossible. Also, you're one to talk about lying. I've tried that move MANY times, and never ONCE was it able to kill Bowser at 80%. You can pull a bunch of numbers out of your rear, but they're meaningless if they are fake.

My information is NOT false, dumb***. Bowser can DEFINITELY be good if used right. Yes, it is difficult to dodge with him, but it is NOT impossible as you seem to think. Not to mention, Bowser can kill Rosalina in only three attacks if you make every one count. Yes, Rosalina is a good character, I do not deny that, but she is NOT the god-character you claim she is, neither is Bowser, or ANY slow character, doomed to be low tiered. Plus, speed means nothing if a character has no way of killing their opponent, while being easy to kill themselves. There is no need for "proof" or "evidence" to back that up, it's just plain common sense.

Now seriously, people want us to shut up already. I'd rather not argue with someone refuses to accept that speed isn't that important and asks for "proof" where it's not needed. Either end it here or take it to VM.

I seriously can't believe you are still pursuing that line of thought, and how you believe you don't need to prove anything you say.

Tell me how I'm the argumentative one again, Taco?

Anyway, I'm done with this farce.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

I seriously can't believe you are still pursuing that line of thought, and how you believe you don't need to prove anything you say.

Tell me how I'm the argumentative one again, Taco?

Anyway, I'm done with this farce.

Because there's nothing really to prove on my part. That's pretty much it.

Yes, let's end this already.

Oh dear...

DISCLAIMER: I'm not here to start or continue things.

Quote: MugoUrth

Now seriously, people want us to shut up already. I'd rather not argue with someone refuses to accept that speed isn't that important and asks for "proof" where it's not needed. Either end it here or take it to VM.

Looks like you're argument is out of gas anyway. You should be able to back up statements like what you said if you want them to have any ground and immediately backtracking just makes Brawler look like he has a better point.

Having glanced at this and skimming a bit (and previous discussions with you), it really does seem like you simply want to convince everyone that heavyweights like Bowser are viable in tournaments and that speed isn't the end all be all for competitive play. You want to prove the tier lists wrong. Allow me to tell you a rather important fact that others have said in the past.

Tier lists aren't that important.

Tiers are used as a measuring stick for which characters tend to perform better in tournaments and have certain advantages over others on an objective, balanced level. Sure a lot of people take these lists seriously and then tend to switch and work on those top tier guys, leading to oversaturation of them. But it's perfectly possible to use a supposed "low-tier" character and go far in the competitive scene.

Take Pac-Man for example. Pac-Man for a lot of people is still a confusing character that people don't really know how to deal with or how he compares to others. And in many cases he's flat out ignored, leading him to place pretty low on many tier lists, if not near the bottom. But Abadango came out at Apex and went pretty damn far with the character (final 8?), surprising many and shining him in a new light. Yeah the tier lists might work as a very bare bones idea of what's what, but if you work hard and play better a low tier character like Charizard can certainly kick the ass out of someone's Sheik.

And speed does have an inherent advantage, though it too isn't the end all be all. Now let's take me for example. One of the characters I often have the hardest time dealing with online is Ganondorf. My mains are relatively fast or at least average in speed, but I very often lose because the Ganon player knows how to read me and trick me into making a mistake, in which I get punished hard. Same can apply to Bowser (and he's faster than Ganon too).

Don't take things like tier lists or the speed advantage to heart man. The vast majority of my mains are considered mid-low or even bottom tier (Greninja is the only exception and he just barely cracks B+ in most lists) and my friend usually goes on to me about how much "Wac-Man" sucks. Doesn't stop me from playing the characters I like and am good at. If you like Bowser and want to main him, do so. Don't let tier lists or elitists tell you otherwise.

And after a while I noticed that you flat out started to get more insulting, calling Brawler a "speed***". That's kind of a low blow and it doesn't really help your credibility. Same applies to you Brawler. Cool down a bit with the name calling. It's perfectly possible to have a more civil debate about the subject rather than an all out argument (and one that EVERYONE can participate in). And yes this sort of debate is acceptable in a thread that's all about discussing and debating Smash 4.

Quote: CAV

Oh dear...

Quote: MugoUrth

Now seriously, people want us to shut up already. I'd rather not argue with someone refuses to accept that speed isn't that important and asks for "proof" where it's not needed. Either end it here or take it to VM.

Looks like you're argument is out of gas anyway. You should be able to back up statements like what you said if you want them to have any ground and immediately backtracking just makes Brawler look like he has a better point.

Having glanced at this and skimming a bit (and previous discussions with you), it really does seem like you simply want to convince everyone that heavyweights like Bowser are viable in tournaments and that speed isn't the end all be all for competitive play. You want to prove the tier lists wrong. Allow me to tell you a rather important fact that others have said in the past.

Tier lists aren't that important.

Tiers are used as a measuring stick for which characters tend to perform better in tournaments and have certain advantages over others on an objective, balanced level. Sure a lot of people take these lists seriously and then tend to switch and work on those top tier guys, leading to oversaturation of them. But it's perfectly possible to use a supposed "low-tier" character and go far in the competitive scene.

Take Pac-Man for example. Pac-Man for a lot of people is still a confusing character that people don't really know how to deal with or how he compares to others. And in many cases he's flat out ignored, leading him to place pretty low on many tier lists, if not near the bottom. But Abadango came out at Apex and went pretty damn far with the character (final 8?), surprising many and shining him in a new light. Yeah the tier lists might work as a very bare bones idea of what's what, but if you work hard and play better a low tier character like Charizard can certainly kick the ass out of someone's Sheik.

And speed does have an inherent advantage, though it too isn't the end all be all. Now let's take me for example. One of the characters I often have the hardest time dealing with online is Ganondorf. My mains are relatively fast or at least average in speed, but I very often lose because the Ganon player knows how to read me and trick me into making a mistake, in which I get punished hard. Same can apply to Bowser (and he's faster than Ganon too).

Don't take things like tier lists or the speed advantage to heart man. The vast majority of my mains are considered mid-low or even bottom tier (Greninja is the only exception and he just barely cracks B+ in most lists) and my friend usually goes on to me about how much "Wac-Man" sucks. Doesn't stop me from playing the characters I like and am good at. If you like Bowser and want to main him, do so. Don't let tier lists or elitists tell you otherwise.

And after a while I noticed that you flat out started to get more insulting, calling Brawler a "speed***". That's kind of a low blow and it doesn't really help your credibility. Same applies to you Brawler. Cool down a bit with the name calling. It's perfectly possible to have a more civil debate about the subject rather than an all out argument (and one that EVERYONE can participate in). And yes this sort of debate is acceptable in a thread that's all about discussing and debating Smash 4.

Oh god, that's my point exactly. Thank you! Sometimes, mere speed isn't enough. It also depends on the intelligence of the user.

No doubt. Even if someone is using someone like Sonic or Captain Falcon, if they're crap or just not as good as their opponent, they can lose to Bowser or Ganondorf. Characters can have inherent advantages and disadvantages over others (and in all fairness to Brawler, Rosalina DOES have a lot of advantages), and speed does tend to have an advantage over sheer power. But player skill does play a huge part in everything.

Quote:

Take Pac-Man for example. Pac-Man for a lot of people is still a confusing character that people don't really know how to deal with or how he compares to others. And in many cases he's flat out ignored, leading him to place pretty low on many tier lists, if not near the bottom. But Abadango came out at Apex and went pretty damn far with the character (final 8?), surprising many and shining him in a new light. Yeah the tier lists might work as a very bare bones idea of what's what, but if you work hard and play better a low tier character like Charizard can certainly kick the ass out of someone's Sheik.

This isn't a universal point.

Pac-Man is a great, underrated character. But it isn't because people aren't working hard with him, it's because people aren't WILLING to use the ATs that have been discovered for him.

You can't compare Charizard to Pac-Man, as Charizard has reached his peak. He's a simple character, much like Sheik. But Sheik is a MUCH BETTER simple character than Charizard. Both Charizard and Sheik have reached their peak, but Sheik still works out as a much better character.

Pac-Man is much more comparable to Rosalina's situation with Dabuz, except more widespread. Pac-Man is a great character, but he takes work. Only difference is, while Rosalina can still do well if you just specialise on playing a very specific playstyle of your own rather than learning and experimenting with EVERYTHING she can do, Pac-Man can't. Pac-Man absolutely REQUIRES you learn his ins and outs and his ATs to do well with him, and NOBODY is willing to put that work in, besides a select few like Abadango. It takes more base work to get good with Pac-Man than it does with Rosalina, but Pac-Man can't go quite as far as Rosalina even with his ATs, especially when accounting her ATs.

Stuff like this are why certain characters are literally better than others. Tournament results are actually the least relevant element of a tier list.

Also I didn't insult anyone, unless pointing out a legitimate fact counts as that.

And people wonder why I don't play Smash except locally with friends. >.>

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i'm not going to argue with data numbers, but if those lists are made by a minority, then honestly i think that makes tier lists even more irrelevant. those professional players aren't everyone else. What they can accomplish doesn't come close to what other players can do.

...I've never read something so bass ackwards in my life...

These lists are made by the minority because:

1) A professional player is hands down going to be better than non-professional players. They literally play the game for a living.
2) Data miners can provide indisputable knowledge on what is and isn't possible for the characters in the game, and can compare and contrast data.

While there are isolated, oddball cases of unfair attempts at tampering with a character's position (one of the top Rosalina players, Dabuz, doesn't believe she's top tier, but that's because he plays her in a specific, defense oriented way, and while he's mastered that and it gets him wins, it makes certain match ups very poor for him, as he refuses to adapt and use Rosalina in the many other ways she can be used, and only makes a move when he's 100% sure he will land it. There's also suspicions he's saying it simply to make scrubs stop complaining about the character, so he can use her without being hated on for his defense-oriented playstyle), these are few and far between, and are often ignored.

What i'm trying to say is, yes, things like damage output can't be argued against. But, while things like combos noted in tiers can be accomplished(and i won't deny that), it doesn't mean that EVERYONE is capable of doing so. Not everyone is going to be able to perform moves like the one you had in that video you shared earlier. Not everyone is able to master a character or characters like ultra-competitive players that make these lists do. There's a difference between what a character can do and what a player can do. Some people just don't have the right amount of skill to use a characters such as Rosalina or Diddy Kong. But at the same time, some players can be extremely skilled with a character like Charizard.

competitive-wise, yes, characters are going to be clearly better than others. but not everyone is competitive, let alone people that are competitive aren't going to have the same skill as the ones who create tiers such as that. For example, me and my friends are all competitive players(for the most part). most of us absolutely suck at Rosalina and Sheik. However, one of my friends mains Ganondorf, and he kicks our butts almost every single time he plays as him. he's so good that i seriously thought he was the overpowered character in this game for a while until i found out my friend was just that good at Ganondorf.

This is why i said i think tier lists are irrelevant. although they show data to prove which characters are generally the best and worst, and who are easiest to win with, it doesn't mean that every single player is going to be able to master what can be done with those characters, and it doesn't mean everyone in particular is going to win with high-tier characters or lose with low-tier characters. It varies on character skill AND player skill. Hence why i said:

Quote:

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IMO tier lists should serve as a reflection of what people think are the best and worst characters

In that case you'll love EventHubs. :V

I'm well aware of EventHubs. honestly if it wasn't biased in where characters are on the list i'd think it'd be a fine tier list. :/

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where did you even find data for this? I'm actually curious.

Data for individual characters can be found on all sorts of sites like Smashboards, and those things that dictate how an official tier list are formed are tried and true traditions in Smash, and in most other fighting games actually. They are the best way to determine who the best characters are in competitive play, so they are used for that reason.

A tier list isn't explicitly saying who the best characters in the game are. It's more saying "who you'll have the easiest time winning with, and who is currently winning the most". Though it goes without saying that this would automatically mean the top 10 characters or so are the 10 best. The only discrepancies you might find are a character like Rosalina not being at the very top of a tier list despite being the best in the game, due to her being harder to use than other top tiers.

I'll just refer to what I said up above.

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There's a difference between what a character can do and what a player can do. Some people just don't have the right amount of skill to use a characters such as Rosalina or Diddy Kong. But at the same time, some players can be extremely skilled with a character like Charizard.

That doesn't make a tier list any more or less relevant (BTW Diddy is easy to use).

The tier list is just saying what characters have the most potential. If you want to defy it, it's your call, but if you enter tournaments as Charizard and keep losing, even though you've mastered everything he can do, then you'd pretty much have to consider using a different character to get wins.

At the end of the day, it's up to how far you want to go with the game. Everyone has the potential to get really good with every character, but not every character holds an equal amount of potential. That's the premise a proper tier list revolves around. Ideally, you'd try to become at least decent with a character or two in every tier.

Pac Man needs to be top tier and so does Mewtwo because both are unkillable unless you get them up to 300%

Biggest load of bull**** i've heard this week lmao

Quote: Sleepy0429

Pac Man needs to be top tier and so does Mewtwo because both are unkillable unless you get them up to 300%

Nice to see some humor in this thread after all the debating and fighting.

Quote: Sleepy0429

Pac Man needs to be top tier and so does Mewtwo because both are unkillable unless you get them up to 300%

Lol, Mewtwo's light as ****.

Quote: I-Brawler

Quote: A10theHero

I think this is something worth reading: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Se...stence_of_Tiers
I do think tiers exist. Some characters are overall better than others, unfortunately. Nonetheless, I encourage everyone to play as who they want and not care where their characters are placed. It's not impossible to win with low-tier characters; you just have to work harder. That's usually difficult to do at the highest level of competitive play, but since most of us are not at that level, it really doesn't matter.

Reveal Spoiler

And just saying, Pikachu is the very best like no one ever was!

I play like **** with Rosalina. Does that make her low tier?

I play amazing with Meta Knight. Does that make him high tier? (again)

No, it doesn't, and why I find this line inaccurate is because, just because you're using a high tier character, doesn't mean it's easy to use them.

Did you even read the stuff that was in that link I posted? It doesn't look like it.
And I never said that top-tier characters are easy to play as. Trust me, I know that all too well. The character's skill ceiling is different from what I was talking about. Overall, certain characters are more versatile (they have more options available in various situations) and have more favorable matchups than others. That's why they're in a higher tier. (And matchups are theorized by the assumption of two players of equal skill using the two characters. In reality, this doesn't happen. Nonetheless, we can learn a lot about potential options--not the outcome of a match--from discussing and theorizing.)
I remember somebody likened tiers to multipliers. I'll try and explain tiers with this.
Let's assume S Tier is x1, A Tier is x2, B Tier is x3, etc. In a big tournament where the best of the best are present, let's say someone uses an A Tier character. The player has to be 2x more skillful than his/her competition in order to have the same advantages as an S Tier player. At the highest level of competition, this is practically impossible because the best players are usually at similar player skill levels. Now, some caveats. Obviously, the multipliers are exaggerated. The disparities aren't so great. Especially in Smash 4. Also, this doesn't factor in individual character matchups. In general, a character of a higher tier is going to have better matches. But they can still have bad matchups and be at a disadvantage.
As for what you said: First of all, and this applies to all debates, don't use anecdotal evidence. You talking about yourself doesn't mean much. How you play as those characters doesn't mean anything when considering tiers--your skill likely doesn't compare to what we're talking about here anyways.
If you still have any questions/concerns/stuff to say, you should PM me. I'd love to discuss this further with you.

Anyways, Mewtwo. They made him bigger and lighter in this game. It's kinda sad. But he is more of a glass cannon now in this game. He can still do some pretty cool stuff. This video shows what happened in a Mewtwo-only tournament. It was pretty interesting for a Smash 4 match.

I often get into tennis matches using Mewtwo's shadow ball against another deflector like Mario or Zelda, and one thing that is really bonkers is that if the opponent reflects a fully charged Shadow Ball, you reflect it right back BUT they reflect it again and you're not able to reflect the Shadow Ball a second time, it can kill Mewtwo even if he's at 0% damage.

...Still, Mewtwo isn't a bad character, at least not like he was in Melee. He does take a bit of getting used to, but I do like his confusion move. Also, he has tremendous Air-Dodging and a meteor smash. I'm also trying to see if I can't use his Down-Smash as an edge-guarding move against opponents below Mewtwo. ...I haven't been succesful with it yet though.

Quote: MugoUrth

I often get into tennis matches using Mewtwo's shadow ball against another deflector like Mario or Zelda, and one thing that is really bonkers is that if the opponent reflects a fully charged Shadow Ball, you reflect it right back BUT they reflect it again and you're not able to reflect the Shadow Ball a second time, it can kill Mewtwo even if he's at 0% damage.

...Still, Mewtwo isn't a bad character, at least not like he was in Melee. He does take a bit of getting used to, but I do like his confusion move. Also, he has tremendous Air-Dodging and a meteor smash. I'm also trying to see if I can't use his Down-Smash as an edge-guarding move against opponents below Mewtwo. ...I haven't been succesful with it yet though.

Try Mewtwo and Pit's tennis match. Pit can hold down the Guardian Orbitars long enough for Mewtwo to reflect it twice and back Mewtwo almost always looses though.

Mewtwo is pretty much smack dab in middle of the road. It's a shame, because if they didn't nerf his weight (from Melee to Smash 4), then I think he could have been even better. I'm fine with him being a lightweight, but second lightest in the entire game? That's too much. As it stands, not only is he easy to combo because of his massive hurtbox, but he gets KO'd so early it's ridiculous. At least in Melee, it was pretty easy for him to survive past 100%. In Smash 4, despite having wider blast zones than past games on stages like FD and Battlefield, Mewtwo will STILL be easily KO'd below 100%. I barely ever end up KO'ing him at 100% or above. Same goes for when I get KO'd when I play as him.

Still, I really like playing as him. He's kinda becoming one of my Top 7 characters personally.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Mewtwo is pretty much smack dab in middle of the road. It's a shame, because if they didn't nerf his weight (from Melee to Smash 4), then I think he could have been even better. I'm fine with him being a lightweight, but second lightest in the entire game? That's too much. As it stands, not only is he easy to combo because of his massive hurtbox, but he gets KO'd so early it's ridiculous. At least in Melee, it was pretty easy for him to survive past 100%. In Smash 4, despite having wider blast zones than past games on stages like FD and Battlefield, Mewtwo will STILL be easily KO'd below 100%. I barely ever end up KO'ing him at 100% or above. Same goes for when I get KO'd when I play as him.

Still, I really like playing as him. He's kinda becoming one of my Top 7 characters personally.

Wasn't he kind of the third lightest in Melee though, next to Pichu and Mr. Jiggles?

Also, again with the hitboxes. He's not that big, plus his ariel dodging abilities are some of the best in the game. He also doesn't suffer from slow landing like other characters do.

Still, I do hope in the next update they buff his weight.

Quote: HeyitsHotDog

Quote: MugoUrth

I often get into tennis matches using Mewtwo's shadow ball against another deflector like Mario or Zelda, and one thing that is really bonkers is that if the opponent reflects a fully charged Shadow Ball, you reflect it right back BUT they reflect it again and you're not able to reflect the Shadow Ball a second time, it can kill Mewtwo even if he's at 0% damage.

...Still, Mewtwo isn't a bad character, at least not like he was in Melee. He does take a bit of getting used to, but I do like his confusion move. Also, he has tremendous Air-Dodging and a meteor smash. I'm also trying to see if I can't use his Down-Smash as an edge-guarding move against opponents below Mewtwo. ...I haven't been succesful with it yet though.

Try Mewtwo and Pit's tennis match. Pit can hold down the Guardian Orbitars long enough for Mewtwo to reflect it twice and back Mewtwo almost always looses though.

Fox can just hold his reflector down as a dick move.

Quote:

He's not that big

...Are you completely certain about that?

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Wasn't he kind of the third lightest in Melee though, next to Pichu and Mr. Jiggles?

Nope:



Also what do you mean by he doesn't suffer from slow landing? If you mean his landing lag on his aerials, he suffers from quite a bit of it. And he doesn't fall fast either, he's a floaty character.

^Mewtwo is tall, but not really that wide.

Also, does anyone else notice that it's nearly impossible to meteor with DK's side special? I have yet to do it in Smash 4.

Quote: Mesuxelf

^Mewtwo is tall, but not really that wide.

Also, does anyone else notice that it's nearly impossible to meteor with DK's side special? I have yet to do it in Smash 4.

Yes he is, he's wider than Ganondorf even in the more straigtened up pose I caught him in, in the above screenshot. Also, his tail is part of his hurtbox, making him one of the widest in the game.

Quote: sonicbrawler182

Quote: Mesuxelf

^Mewtwo is tall, but not really that wide.

Also, does anyone else notice that it's nearly impossible to meteor with DK's side special? I have yet to do it in Smash 4.

Yes he is, he's wider than Ganondorf even in the more straigtened up pose I caught him in, in the above screenshot. Also, his tail is part of his hurtbox, making him one of the widest in the game.

I was unaware that his tail was part of his hurtbox. Oops.

Pac Man is GREAT when you know what you are doing.