darkSpyro

Quote: Unreallystic

I'll be honest

They might as well remove backwards compatibility.

While the characters are still in the game and playable, the design of each game is to convince you to buy and play as the 'GimmickLanders'...some characters have gotten nerfed to the point of being unplayable. In Giants - SSA characters were still very viable. In SF, if you weren't two pieces, full of air or honey, you most likely weren't great at competing. I'm going to assume based on trends and comments that it is no different here. In SF, outside of getting a higher portal master ranking - and Flameslinger, I really had no use for any non SF character. Backwards compatibility meant nothing in the scheme of things.
- Unreall

lol WUT??? Trap Masters only gain additional damage against Villains. I'm sure Flameslinger will be just as insane as he's always been. I did tons of play throughs as Flameslinger, Voodood and Boomer in S.F. and melted the screen. I don't know what your doing and why you'd even suggest the franchise lose backwards compatibility but I'd suggest some warm milk and cookies and a nap to clear your head. Backwards compatibility might not mean anything to you but I like the challenge and ability to play as who I want. These Villains are the worst of the worst so they should suck to fight when your not one of their "wardens" when you fight them. The Trap Masters know everything about them, their weakness and how to exploit them....There I even gave you a lore reason as to why Trap Masters and their gimmick work.

Quote: Arc of Archives

Wrecking Ball seems to be an exception to the "all Cores are weaker than Trap Masters" rule, though

*picture of Wrecking Ball doing over 1000 damage*

I don't know if this is just some damage numbers overlapping and making it look like his Forcefield does 1225 damage (doubtful because I saw 1225 every time I used it), but if it really does over 1000 damage, either TFB are insane or made a kinda hilarious screwup with his damage numbers.

Test it on an actual enemy lol, this dummy is drunk.

Quote: Sivadreamer

Quote: Bionichute

Quote: Sivadreamer

With the DI figures, they have skill trees so you really have to examine your play style and choose wisely.

Your playstyle which probably consists of punching enemies and jumping, I'm guessing, since the gameplay in DI is very limited.

Granted, I may have only played for a handful of hours but the skill tree branches all over the place....including jump and punch upgrades yes. There are defensive upgrades, melee upgrades, ranged upgrades, healing (team player style) upgrades...and only a limited number of skill points possible to acquire.

I'm not saying that DI is better or not, just that there are more options for customization....my Venom is WAY different than my daughter's and my son's.

He is just being a fanboy. If he thinks "punching and jumping" is the extent of Infinity characters and their variety, he at best gave it a quick play and wrote it off for whatever reason. The skill tree is actually quite varied.

As far as the topic, I get they want people to play with the new figures and buy new figures, but they also want to play the whole backwards compatibility card. They don't want people to realize that old figures will be marginalized to make kids want the new ones. To me, that sounds like they aren't convinced the gimmick can carry itself this year. They probably understand parents are looking at the massive number of figures kids already have and are deciding to cut back.

Quote: defpally

Quote: Sivadreamer

Quote: Bionichute

Your playstyle which probably consists of punching enemies and jumping, I'm guessing, since the gameplay in DI is very limited.

Granted, I may have only played for a handful of hours but the skill tree branches all over the place....including jump and punch upgrades yes. There are defensive upgrades, melee upgrades, ranged upgrades, healing (team player style) upgrades...and only a limited number of skill points possible to acquire.

I'm not saying that DI is better or not, just that there are more options for customization....my Venom is WAY different than my daughter's and my son's.

He is just being a fanboy. If he thinks "punching and jumping" is the extent of Infinity characters and their variety, he at best gave it a quick play and wrote it off for whatever reason. The skill tree is actually quite varied.

As far as the topic, I get they want people to play with the new figures and buy new figures, but they also want to play the whole backwards compatibility card. They don't want people to realize that old figures will be marginalized to make kids want the new ones. To me, that sounds like they aren't convinced the gimmick can carry itself this year. They probably understand parents are looking at the massive number of figures kids already have and are deciding to cut back.

You're also forgetting the huge perk to retailers in that no figure is EVER obsolete. There's never a reason to R.T.V. or Clearance a figure since they will always be viable. That's HUGE!!!!!! to a retailer (I would think). Personally I think SSA Skylanders will be just as viable in Tram Team as they were in Swap Force. Hell I wrote Warnado of as a total waste but played in in Swap Force and he actually seems better...go figure.

Quote: Tigorus

You're also forgetting the huge perk to retailers in that no figure is EVER obsolete. There's never a reason to R.T.V. or Clearance a figure since they will always be viable. That's HUGE!!!!!! to a retailer (I would think). Personally I think SSA Skylanders will be just as viable in Tram Team as they were in Swap Force. Hell I wrote Warnado of as a total waste but played in in Swap Force and he actually seems better...go figure.

They are viable, and they aren't. There the same old figure (possibly made weaker). TRU made SSA figures $4.99 recently, which is a good move given their limitations. They don't have upgraded Wow Pows, and they cannot participate in the yearly gimmick. So look at it as a challenge, others see it as the character being made pointless.

Quote: defpally

Quote: Tigorus

You're also forgetting the huge perk to retailers in that no figure is EVER obsolete. There's never a reason to R.T.V. or Clearance a figure since they will always be viable. That's HUGE!!!!!! to a retailer (I would think). Personally I think SSA Skylanders will be just as viable in Tram Team as they were in Swap Force. Hell I wrote Warnado of as a total waste but played in in Swap Force and he actually seems better...go figure.

They are viable, and they aren't. There the same old figure (possibly made weaker). TRU made SSA figures $4.99 recently, which is a good move given their limitations. They don't have upgraded Wow Pows, and they cannot participate in the yearly gimmick. So look at it as a challenge, others see it as the character being made pointless.

I don't think they made anything weaker, officially. They simply made the new guys stronger for boss fights only. Let's be honest, most Wow Pows were short on the Wow. I rarely EVER use them unless they're passive. Now the switching specs. without resetting is a nice touch though. The old timers are only locked out of actually opening the gate and smashing the crystal. You can use a Trap Master to open the gate and switch back and play the zone with whoever you want. We can do this glass "half full" or "half empty" thing all day. Bottom line is that most of the limitations are based on the preference of the player. Personally I'm getting one Trap Master for each element (mostly as gate keys) and one set of traps and I'll collect everything else at a leisurely pace. I have SOOOOOOOO much do do and play with when it comes to my collection. Once I have the ability to unlock to content I'll be good for a while.

Now, I'm not one to play a character simply because it is "more powerful". I enjoy some of the lower tier characters, like Shroomboom (I like his design and he is unorthodox). They aren't going to say "officially" they nerfed old figures. Most reports and reviews have noticed how the old ones aren't as viable. Personally, I'm fine with that - I like a challenge, but it's pretty plainly obvious that and old figure won't be getting any improvements to keep up.

True, they won't but I'm o.k. with that. I'm going to be running lots of test on dummies and comparing numbers. I think I'll do a numbers comparison to what the oldies did in Swap Force as well to see if they did indeed get nerfed. To be honest I think the Trap Master gimmick is probably the most controversial gimmick to date. Most reviewers don't play near what we play or know the characters as well as we do. When they see that Trap Masters are more powerful for boss fights that usually translates to "The new guys are more powerful so don't bother with your old figures" tag lines and the details are lost. If parents read these reviews not knowing all the facts it will hurt the franchise overall because it's starting to look like long term purchasing plans aren't panning out.

Quote: defpally

Now, I'm not one to play a character simply because it is "more powerful". I enjoy some of the lower tier characters, like Shroomboom (I like his design and he is unorthodox). They aren't going to say "officially" they nerfed old figures. Most reports and reviews have noticed how the old ones aren't as viable. Personally, I'm fine with that - I like a challenge, but it's pretty plainly obvious that and old figure won't be getting any improvements to keep up.

"More Powerful" is misconstrued.

There are times where people will play 'the strongest', but most often, its play whom they want to play as. However there is a difference between a character being stronger, and a character being 'weaker'. I don't touch Ghost Roaster anymore. It's not because I spend all my time playing as Bumble Blast, its because Ghost Roaster is so weak at this point that its simply not FUN to play as him. There is something to be said for challenge, but there is also something to be said for 'fun'. When a challenge becomes 'tedious' due to character limitations, then it isn't 'fun'. I LOVED Zook, he's extremely fun - he's a faster - and IMO more effective version of ShroomBoom, but the damage his attacks did in SF was so little, that it was no longer fun to play as him, it wasn't the challenge, it was just what should be challenging - became a tedious exercise of run and shoot loops...and in timed situations, it became almost impossible to win.

That became the narrative for SF - for me at least. Characters not new to the series frankly couldn't keep up - especially on the damage side of the equation (minus a couple who maintained a level of effectiveness, though still not on the SF's tier). Giant's could take the damage, but not do enough in a timely manner to keep a brisk pace...Crusher was the only one I had any real success with. Cores outside of the outliers like Drobot or Flameslinger - all fell into that same hole, only with even less health than the giants. I was P.O.ed with what they did to Prism Break, his damage was so poultry that it handicapped his effectiveness against anything that wasn't a basic chompy. It was no longer a 'challenge' it just wasn't fun to play as the older characters. The game was designed for the Swap Force characters.

This game I haven't touched - so I admit my view is based on what I've read to date, but all arrows point to a continuation of that trend...Trap Masters will mow through content, 'some' SF combos will keep up or close to, but be formidable, Giants will be good for lifting a rock, and old cores will be limited to Portal master rank ups (exaggeration but still). At that rate - I'm not 'calling' for them to get rid of backwards compatibility - not at all, but if the goal is to force you to the newer characters, then what's the point outside of just being able to say 'it will work'. That's like puting iOS8 on a iPhone4S, sure it works, but it doesn't really.
- Unreall

Although some people like the challenge of trying to succeed with a handicap. These are the people that choose "The Deprived" class in Dark Souls or Dan in Street Fighter games.

It does sound like they did go overboard nerfing some characters. Older figures were frustrating in Swap Force, while you can succeed - it typically wasn't fun unless you are into the challenge.

Quote: defpally

Although some people like the challenge of trying to succeed with a handicap. These are the people that choose "The Deprived" class in Dark Souls or Dan in Street Fighter games.

It does sound like they did go overboard nerfing some characters. Older figures were frustrating in Swap Force, while you can succeed - it typically wasn't fun unless you are into the challenge.

I guess the best way I can describe it for 'me' - sticking with Street Fighter since that's my real passion...say your cousin comes over and ask to play a few matches just to kill time. He doesn't play at all, while you are at the point you partake in local tournaments and watch Evo footage to learn new mixups. You can do one of three things to 'level out the playing field'

1. Use the handicap option, making your character take immense damage and deal very little damage
2. Pick a character that is notoriously weak - such as Dan (though he's not as weak as he used to be)
3. Pick a character you don't know at all

In SF they went with option 1. The problem with option 1 - against your cousin, YOU get frustrated with the handicap as it entirely changes how you play certain characters - if you like 'Seth' from SF4 for instance, he already has HORRIBLE health, no two punches and he's out...and his gameplay 'revolved' around mixups and the such, which now are so 'scary' to you if you mess up, that you can't play that way. Or on the flipside, if you play Zangief who has high health, the handicap won't matter, you'll still win, playing the way you did before, it just takes significantly longer, and a lot of the fun you usually have dissipates as you go through the motions over and over, knowing that he can't escape due to ignorance, the competition isn't there, its just slower...much much slower...and not fun.

To me Prism Break is a prime example of Seth. His playstyle changed due to his damage output sucking...even S3 was weak. Flameslinger is more like Zangief...with his speed and range, he can still win, but it takes so much longer against harder guys, doing some of the arenas on nightmare is impossible with him (thinking aobut he Shep Wreck ones in particular) simply because he can't do enough damage to kill the golems before they get to the portal.

Now, I don't want it to sound like I'm complaining - because I'm not trying to. What I will say though is we pay an absorbent amount of money for the 'toys' on top of the game. We all know how much money Activision takes to the bank on the series. The games don't get patches or DLC add-ons and I at least assume - they reuse character models outside of Giants->Swap Force, so they even save money on development. Somewhere in there, they need to pump a little money into 'tweaks'. I don't mean playing the number games with older characters - I mean adjusting Sunburn's fireball, or increasing the speed Spyro can shoot, making sure Prism Break can play the same way, maybe since it is longer for him to kill something, the gems they make are more effective. It would go a LONG way to do that to not just reposes and via Wow Pows.
- Unreall

I don't disagree. I said early on that even if the new figures and gimmick were garbage, the game itself is worth it just for the new content. But, it appears they made it so you aren't able to just have fun with what you have in the new content. It's their way of forcing new figure purchases. One would think someone with 180+ figures would be in a fine position to enjoy the new game with just the Starter, but no, not really ....

Quote: defpally

I don't disagree. I said early on that even if the new figures and gimmick were garbage, the game itself is worth it just for the new content. But, it appears they made it so you aren't able to just have fun with what you have in the new content. It's their way of forcing new figure purchases. One would think someone with 180+ figures would be in a fine position to enjoy the new game with just the Starter, but no, not really ....

But you'd have to be completely naive to think that would be the case regardless of your collection. It is a business and they are trying to sell us as much as they can. This is not a new business model. If I (or anyone else) wants to make the minimum purchase to unlock everything I need one Trap Master and on Trap for each element. Granted they added Dark and Light but that's a separate wired issue. Once you have that you can do EVERYTHING in the game. It's on the consumer to buy more or use what they have. The same happened in Swap Force minus the need for an additional set of peripherals. I personally get one of each of the new guys and avoid reposes (unless they are of my favs. and they add something amazing). I have no illusions about what this franchise hopes to accomplish with my $$$ but it's on me ultimately. Up to and including Swap Force I still have fun with the SSA generation. I'm sure I will have a similar experience in Trap Team. I hope you are able to find enjoyment as well but time will tell.

Well, not naive, but there are those that have reached the point where they consider their collections getting a bit overboard. Like for me, I'm planning on getting the game and a nice selection of figures, but I'm definitely not going all in - especially on traps. I want to try it out, but I'm not keeping a collection of 40+ of them, each with a different stored villain. I'll get 6 on day one for that TRU deal, one for each of the elements not in the Starter. Hopefully that will let me trap everything (other than Kaos, of course), and we can just reuse them. I'm still not certain if the different molds mean anything special, maybe someone can answer? If not, I'll just get a good variety.

I won't be picking up the Starter until Black Friday, probably on XBox One (if we do go with that for Christmas). I'll get Trap Masters (non-variants) and a good amount of Newlanders. Minis aren't on my radar, already have 8 Sidekicks that will apparently work just fine for that aspect.

Previously, we have been all in - I have every figure and every non-chase variant. Just a little bummed it appears those figures aren't going to be as viable as hoped. Just looking for ways to cut back but still have lots of variety in game to enjoy it.

Quote: defpally

Well, not naive, but there are those that have reached the point where they consider their collections getting a bit overboard. Like for me, I'm planning on getting the game and a nice selection of figures, but I'm definitely not going all in - especially on traps. I want to try it out, but I'm not keeping a collection of 40+ of them, each with a different stored villain. I'll get 6 on day one for that TRU deal, one for each of the elements not in the Starter. Hopefully that will let me trap everything (other than Kaos, of course), and we can just reuse them. I'm still not certain if the different molds mean anything special, maybe someone can answer? If not, I'll just get a good variety.

I won't be picking up the Starter until Black Friday, probably on XBox One (if we do go with that for Christmas). I'll get Trap Masters (non-variants) and a good amount of Newlanders. Minis aren't on my radar, already have 8 Sidekicks that will apparently work just fine for that aspect.

Previously, we have been all in - I have every figure and every non-chase variant. Just a little bummed it appears those figures aren't going to be as viable as hoped. Just looking for ways to cut back but still have lots of variety in game to enjoy it.

Same on the trap front, I'm being very cautious on that front. I might go to the deep end of the pool if they confirm the Trap slot with be relevant in future games. Plus I think it will make for a more strategic experience if I have to anticipate what Villain I think will be best to use. Make my choice seem a little more important. Plus the TRU trap deal this weekend is too good to pass up. I will be getting the PS4 version this Sunday and I PROMISE I will be doing damage comparisons and reporting my findings. I am a HUGE supporter of the SSA originals and will use them heavily in this game. On the mini front I'll pick them up casually. Minjini and Eyesmall were the only Side Kick I didn't get so at least they won't be double dips. I'm still going to be watching for sales and other deals this time around. I plan on getting all the new pieces but slowly. I'm in no rush....I take that back...kinda. I will get a complete elemental set of Trap Masters and the Light and Dark sets as soon as they are available but after that it's easy going.

I am not sure how it will go on TT but on SF i had as much fun with my old favorites as the new ones. As far as their strength and effectiveness in the new game i found my old ones still taking names and doing just as much damage as before not having any problem making it through a level. In fact sometimes i had to switch from new ones to an old one as the new guys just couldnt cut it. So i will try out the new guys and see if there are any i like enough to add to my favorites, although at this time there are only a few trapmasters that look interesting to me and none of the cores. I feel i will be very disappointed in this game and will most likely will not pick it up for awhile. I hope in #5 they will go back to doing more reposes of older characters as the almost complete lack of them this time is one of my chief complaints.

Quote: defpally

I don't disagree. I said early on that even if the new figures and gimmick were garbage, the game itself is worth it just for the new content. But, it appears they made it so you aren't able to just have fun with what you have in the new content. It's their way of forcing new figure purchases. One would think someone with 180+ figures would be in a fine position to enjoy the new game with just the Starter, but no, not really ....

Yeah I do have a little burn with that last part, I was REALLY hoping to be able to just have the Starter set and enjoy the game until money 'fixes' itself and I can get figures more easily. I've got so many figures and I just don't use them now. I've contemplated selling most of my collection when the 'new game' comes out just because of that.
- Unreall

So has anyone actually tested the SSA and Giants Gen in Trap Team yet?

no pvp whats the point of balance anyway

Quote: Tigorus

So has anyone actually tested the SSA and Giants Gen in Trap Team yet?

I'll chime in to say that for Trap Team, which I've beaten on Medium and finished all arena battles in, the old Skylanders simply aren't cutting it anymore. I stopped buying figures around SF, with only Star Strike coming to mind as a purchased figure outside of the starter pack.

In Trap Team, no one does enough damage to warrant using except the powerhouses from the previous games. That means if you had Drobot on Master Blaster, you'll be fine; I went through all the arenas with him and almost managed to beat the final Kaos fight with him alone. Same goes for Tempest Dragon Whirlwind. Star Strike retains her old broken-ness, but takes forever to win (that said, as boring as it is, she works because of her almost-immune-to-projectiles-play style). Everyone else pretty much fails. Hell, even Drill Sergeant, well known for high damage output with future cannon, gets wrecked easily.

At this point, it's a DPS (damage per second) competition. If you don't have high DPS and the ability to do that while on the run, you aren't keeping up. If you play the three I mentioned that work (Drobot, Whirlwind and Star Strike), the key strength between them is there ability to hit hard, hot fast and hit while running away. Drobot ticks really fast and now hits for 36 per tick (if you're a bit off with your aim, it's 18 per tick, and 8 per tick if you hit only with the side blasters and not the main two). I'd say Drobot's been buffed, he wrecked the arenas easily and mostly without the use of a trapped enemy (except one arena). Drobot can spam his lasers for stupid levels of damage, and hit for 160 damage with Afterburners to get away. Most of the time enemies die before they reach Drobot because his damage output is so high.

Whirlwind of Tempst Dragon still plays the same "spam clouds and watch things die" game she always has. I don't think I need to explain Tempest Dragon, the clouds do damage at a ridiculously fast pace, while the matrix adds enough damage to kill and her flight ability gets her away while her clouds do the damage for her.

Star Strike is Star Strike. Immunity to Projectiles. Nuff' said.

With all that said, the other old figures I have are completely worthless. Maybe others might contend with a hell of a lot of running and gunning, but anything that doesn't have a projectile is dead. Chop Chop, even S2 with Wow Pow, isn't looking that good anymore. Still passable if you want to torture yourself, but not really good anymore. I now have a box of figures that don't do anything worthwhile anymore. The nerf trend seems to hold true across the board with only the odd exception here and there. I'm comparing my figures with the output from Snap Shot, a Trap Master, not to be unfair, but because on medium, I don't think a reasonable person could beat the game with only Snap Shot enjoyably. Sure, you could beat the game if you played extra carefully, but I wouldn't be enjoying it. It'd be tedious (his DPS is counterbalanced by his larger hitbox).

I guess I can sum this up by saying, if you have a large collection of old figures, expect only a few cores to be of much use. Giants? You have got to be kidding, that's like the large hitbox of Trap Masters without any of the fun. Just....just Drobot the game. Drobot's been buffed a lot.

Edit: had more time to test Stealth Elf, Chill, Blast Zone. Turns out the overall trend is still the same. If you were a powerhouse before, you probably still have a high DPS output now. Stealth Elf on PBS ticks for 36 damage each time, and ticks relatively fast, while her tiger attack (attacking while Stealth'd) gives out 192 damage on the first hit. Assuming you hit with the tiger attack and then spam her close range blades, she can kill most things at the cost of most of her health (due to having to be in close range, she has no protection and Arboreal Acrobatics isn't fast enough to get her away reliably). Sure, Sylvan Regeneration does help out a bit, but at only 5 health each time, it regenerates far too slowly.

Chill...on Ice Lancer, is surprising. While previously a good character, she wasn't know for high DPS. Now, her spears hit for 101 damage each, with each round of spears firing pretty quickly after the last set. The Ice Walls are now much easier to break, but they still serve her Shatterspear, which turns her 3 spears into 5. Sadly, as they all fan out and dissappear a short distance away, she has to be pretty close to be able to hit reliably. Good for clearing out swarms, but her old style of control with the ice walls is completely gone. She's just a projectile spammer now, and while 101 per tick is good, Drobot outclasses her for sheer broken-ness. Gone are the days of strategic ice wall setups, just mash the attack button.

Blast Zone. He hits for 58 damage per bomb, and since he throws 2 bombs every time in quick succession, that's a lot of damage output. Sadly, they bounce. And they now bounce OVER enemies. Meaning you have to Be at the correct distance to get the bombs to hit, or really close. Good, passable, but again, might as well use Drobot.