darkSpyro

im not getting s2 hex. hex=least fav.

I don't have but have heard that he's REALLY bad and weak.

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LIGHTNING LORD
Every upgrade Lightning Lord has is devoted to creating the most powerful Grant Lightning attack in history. You'll get a speed boost, you'll get a pair of damage boosts, and you'll even get the ability to transform into a larger-than-life Lightning Avatar to rain down damage on your foes. If you can't tell already, this path is a blast to play.

Recommended Hat: Winged Hat (or your best Speed hat)
Not only does the Winged Hat look completely awesome on The Rod, it also helps shore up his greatest weakness—a total lack of speed. Easily the best choice.

Damage Numbers:
Grand Lightning: 26
Thrown Bolt: 17
Thrown Bolt Residual Damage: 3
Zapper Shield: 18

Story Mode Rating: 8
If you're looking for the best place to rain down electric doom on a wide variety of targets, bring Rod through Story Mode. Although 26 damage may not seem like a lot for an attack with the fanfare of Grand Lightning, keep in mind that the attack hits multiple times and relatively rapidly. It's no stretch to say that, once you've practiced a bit with the remote control damage of Grand Lightning, Lightning Lord obliterates everything in his path.

Battle Mode Rating: 6
Grand Lightning will steamroll the weaker and slower characters with relative ease, but there's one problem that stops Lightning Lord from ranking any higher than the middle of the pack. What's that, you ask? Well, for all its great power and even greater fanfare, Grand Lightning can be interrupted relatively easily, and this means trouble—especially since this is the only attack you'll be upgrading along this path.

Overall Ranking: 7
Lightning Rod, in many ways, does live up to the hype. Grand Lightning is as powerful as you would expect, and if it weren't for the fact that it can be interrupted, it would be pretty close to the perfect attack. The problem is, it's also pretty much your only attack, leaving Lightning Lord an overall one-dimensional path. In situations where Grand Lightning falters, there's really not much else you can do.


TYPHOON TITAN
Instead of upgrading Lightning Rod's signature Grand Lightning attack, Typhoon Titan instead opts for a more passive and defense-oriented approach featuring an attack all his own, the zapper satellites. These are a series of three protective clouds that deal damage to nearby enemies. They also work very well with the zapper shield, especially after you've purchased Rod's Soul Gem upgrade.

Recommended Hat: Winged Hat
Lightning Rod is a very slow character, and that lack of speed is his chief weakness. You can never completely fix this, but a speed hat at least helps.

Damage Numbers:
Grand Lightning: 15
Thrown Bolt: 17
Thrown Bolt Residual Damage: 3
Zapper Shield: 18
Zapper Satellites: 10

Story Mode Rating: 4
Typhoon Titan functions best up-close, because that's where his zapper satellites do their greatest damage. Problem is, Lightning Rod is very slow, and getting up close to begin with can be a hassle. In the time it takes Typhoon Titan to approach and engage a group of enemies, Lightning Lord will have already wiped them out and be moving in to collect the rewards. Not only that, 10 damage per satellite strike isn't nearly as high as it should be to warrant choosing a whole path for them.

Battle Mode Rating: 3
Typhoon Titan has serious damage issues, and while he has no trouble hitting opponents, actually draining their HP from full to zero is another matter entirely. Faster characters can avoid him entirely, ranged attackers don't need to get close to shoot right through his satellites, and charging melees are not deterred by Typhoon Titan's zapper shield since they do so much more damage up close than he does. This is far from an ideal choice for the versus arena.

Overall Ranking: 3.5
The idea of zapper satellites is a promising one—after all, who wouldn't want a ring of damaging clouds following them wherever they went? Sadly though, this is one of those ideas that only sounds good on paper. In practice, 10 damage is 10 damage—a very low number unless you're striking rapidly, which, on this path, you're not. Lightning Rod was made to use his Grand Lightning, and because of that, Typhoon Titan almost seems like an afterthought.

I would predict Lightning rod could tear the bone wall down at range, and then come in for a zapper field with his clouds, and Lightning rod is not crappy. Depending on the damage of his wow pow, he could become even better!

he kinda is. both paths, typhoon more than lightning lord.

Not really, you may just be poor as him.

Um, its kinda hard to be good wit him. Maybe you are, though.

And here is why I find Lightning rod so underrated.

- Commander Crab= C Teir

- Typhoon Titan= D/B/C Teir


They are DEFINITLY not E.

Joerox, you deserve an award!

Finally someone who protests Typhoon titan being in E tier.

I don't have Wham shell, so no input on commander crab from me.

I keep hearing Lightning Rod is better than we say, but I also never hear any strategies with that other than spamming his main attack and hoping you're not up against a ranged character as Typhoon Titan, a melee character as Lightning Lord, or against a top-tier character at all. He's not really full of depth, that Lightning Rod. Zero escape tactics, minimal finesse to any attack on either path, and no deterrence against any of his weaknesses other than to basically die and be a cheap funeral. What makes him better than we say? What are his fans doing that all these allegedly biased people aren't, when the entire character is based on spamming as hard as you can and hoping to win before you lose? It's a matter of firepower, and the naysayers are just pointing out that he doesn't have enough.

Heck, it will take him approximately 50 hits to beat Crusher as Typhoon Titan, 20-25 to take out the likes of Bash, and that's WITH full elemental power. There is NO WAY you're going to tell me that you're landing 25-50 hits before these characters beat you to a pulp, and this is to make no mention of Terrafin, who can just stalk you underground, or Flashwing, who can snipe both paths with relative ease. What Earth character can he even beat? Prism Break? Even that's a maybe a best-case scenario, and only for Lightning Lord--he destroys Typhoon Titan. And these are the ones Rod has an elemental advantage to! Try taking on a Fire guy, try putting him up against some of these C-tier dudes he supposedly beats... what victories is Lightning Rod getting that keep him from the cellar, and how are you getting them?

I stand by all negative statements I've ever made about Lightning Rod. I'd take T.T. out of the cellar to D simply because Giants is a more defensive game, but even C is a total stretch. And Lightning Lord belongs right there in D with him now, due to the overall strength infusion the rest of the field has had as a result of Newlanders, S2 reposes, and Giants.

We'll see how his Wow Pow changes things, but S1 Lightning Rod is just a non-contender with a couple of situated advantages where he'll occasionally knock off a character way above his station and convince the community he might be good. At least in my eyes.

^ Does the award come with a cookie?

Quote: Tashiji

I keep hearing Lightning Rod is better than we say, but I also never hear any strategies with that other than spamming his main attack and hoping you're not up against a ranged character as Typhoon Titan, a melee character as Lightning Lord, or against a top-tier character at all. He's not really full of depth, that Lightning Rod. Zero escape tactics, minimal finesse to any attack on either path, and no deterrence against any of his weaknesses other than to basically die and be a cheap funeral. What makes him better than we say? What are his fans doing that all these allegedly biased people aren't, when the entire character is based on spamming as hard as you can and hoping to win before you lose? It's a matter of firepower, and the naysayers are just pointing out that he doesn't have enough.

Heck, it will take him approximately 50 hits to beat Crusher as Typhoon Titan, 20-25 to take out the likes of Bash, and that's WITH full elemental power. There is NO WAY you're going to tell me that you're landing 25-50 hits before these characters beat you to a pulp, and this is to make no mention of Terrafin, who can just stalk you underground, or Flashwing, who can snipe both paths with relative ease. What Earth character can he even beat? Prism Break? Even that's a maybe a best-case scenario, and only for Lightning Lord--he destroys Typhoon Titan. And these are the ones Rod has an elemental advantage to! Try taking on a Fire guy, try putting him up against some of these C-tier dudes he supposedly beats... what victories is Lightning Rod getting that keep him from the cellar, and how are you getting them?

I stand by all negative statements I've ever made about Lightning Rod. I'd take T.T. out of the cellar to D simply because Giants is a more defensive game, but even C is a total stretch. And Lightning Lord belongs right there in D with him now, due to the overall strength infusion the rest of the field has had as a result of Newlanders, S2 reposes, and Giants.

We'll see how his Wow Pow changes things, but S1 Lightning Rod is just a non-contender with a couple of situated advantages where he'll occasionally knock off a character way above his station and convince the community he might be good. At least in my eyes.

False, I beat every Earth character as my Typhoon titan Lightning Rod. His moves have excellent coverage of both ranged and melee attackers.

How do you do it? What tactics are you using? Heroics or none? Which arena? What is causing you to experience such different results? I'm not accusing anyone of lying, I'm legitimately wondering how you do it. He is just too easy to interrupt, and none of his attacks do respectable damage.

I'm gonna upload vids of Paramushroom Promotion and Brawler S2.

I hate Paramushroom Promotion, it's so awful. Heck, I'm not even gonna wait until I get to Level 15, once I finish recording, it's over. Goin back to Barrier Boost.

Quote: Tashiji

How do you do it? What tactics are you using? Heroics or none? Which arena? What is causing you to experience such different results? I'm not accusing anyone of lying, I'm legitimately wondering how you do it. He is just too easy to interrupt, and none of his attacks do respectable damage.

I do most of my matches at what I think is the most normal stage(with arena effects off) Pirate grotto.

My strategy? Every one of Lightning Rod's attacks has a use on Typhoon titan, even the neglected Grand Lightning summoning, I use all of his attacks to put myself at an advantage, taking on the enemy at range with my bolt, hitting them at a different elavation with my grand lightning, and making easy work of melee characters up close with my zapper field and clouds. The thing about Lightning rod is his balance, even his stat card shows balanced stats.

My Lightning rod has, 3 or 4 heroics and yet he is able to dominate the field. Terrafin can't get close without getting zapped to shreds by the clouds, or having a bolt thrown in his face, unless he wants to play cheap and let his razorfin do the fighting, but it's just so easy to dodge that thing that he will resort to going to the surface for a belly flop and utterly be decimated. This match up is pretty sad for Terrafin because he has such little options, and no matter which of them he tries he is easily screwed.

Bash vs. Lightning rod surprised me, but Bash can't get close without being zapped to oblivion by the clouds, and while he tries to get close, LR can chip away a lot of his health at range. This is similar to Terrafin, Bash doesn't have much options and even his most safe option: trying to stand back and fire off stones at Lightning Rod ends up in Bash losing.

Lightning Rod vs. Dino rang. Dino rang put up more of a fight than Bash and Terrafin, but still ended up losing. Bommerang spam kept the clouds away from him somewhat well, but grand lightning summoning solved that.

Lightning rod vs Prism break. Okay if you're saying you can't beat him as typhoon titan, that is just sad. I was easy able to strip most of his HP at range, mostly Grand Lightning. I didn't have to lift a finger to win this one. This was more sad than the fight against Terrafin. The only thing that made this fight somewhat annoying was the three falling crystals, which are always a pain in the A.

There you go, a review for Lightning rod's great triumphs over the Earth element.

Some honorable mentions: Lightning rod wins against Glacier yeti Slam bam(average tier) Demolition troll boomer(D tier)Nut crafter stump smash(average tier)Tempest dragon whirlwind(B tier)Treefolk charger Tree rex(A tier)Golden frenzy Trigger happy( E tier, but still it shows he can beat other characters in that tier) Harpooner Gill grunt(E tier)Forest Ninja Stealth elf(D tier)

But no matter what, at least we can agree he's not Golden Frenzy Trigger happy.

Quote: LightSpyro13

I'm gonna upload vids of Paramushroom Promotion and Brawler S2.

I hate Paramushroom Promotion, it's so awful. Heck, I'm not even gonna wait until I get to Level 15, once I finish recording, it's over. Goin back to Barrier Boost.

I agree Paramushroom promotion should be E tier. Seriously, who's idea was it for it to be in B tier?

^ That's What I wanna know! Who the hell voted Paramushroom Promotion for B tier? Finally someone agrees!

The Paratroopers are STILL useless, they drop down VERY slowly and are easy to avoid; very ineffective in PvP.Even Chompies in PvE avoid those things with ease, even though you can spam 3 of them at once.

The Mushroom Ring is completely useless and sucks without Barrier Boost, it's very small and does petty little damage. You can burst right through it in PvP and get to who is weak in close-quarters on this pointless path, though it will try to knock you away.

After I finish recording it (level 13, it's unbearable so I'm not waiting til level 15; I can't stand this path no matter what), I'm going back to Barrier Boost instantly!

The only thing I will miss is the Lock N Load, the rapid-fire mushrooms were a bit helpful. It's pretty much the only good attack he has, along with the Soul Gem.

Yes, we can totally agree he's not Golden Frenzy Trigger happy.

Were you fighting all S2 characters? The Wow Pow is why I write off a loss to Bash, but looking back, I neglected to mention that. And yes, I am hypothesizing Terrafin fighting cheap from underground with his fin and also underutilized homing sharks, plus Wow Pow. Basically how he fights anyone else.

With regards to Prism Break, the problem is just that he attacks faster than Rod does, and from a greater range. Grand Lightning is bound to be interrupted by crystal rain... I've done that countless times, especially against T.T. Strangely, in our in-house rankings, Typhoon Titan is considered to be rather weak to Crystaleer.

Given what you said about Heroics, though, it might be +Critical and +Armor that explain our differences. Are the rest of your characters similar in terms of completed challenges? +Critical helps characters with high numbers more than those who piece together DoT from smaller hits, and a high +Armor score can reduce overall damage dealt by over 30%, which seriously takes the floor out from under DPS-based characters like Rod. How are the Heroics on your opposition?

And actually, I am also advocating raising Typhoon Titan's stock as well, we're only debating how far he should go. I'd say D is a very safe bet, but C isn't completely out of the question. The change in metagame really is towards defensive characters, largely in part to how many arenas favor avoidance and self-preservation. Typhoon Titan obviously benefits from that... it's just a matter of how much.

^ I vote C.

When he uses B on 360 (Attack 3), they speed up and shoot VERY fast. Sum= 90+58= 148 in like three seconds.

Quote: Mrmorrises

Terrafin can't get close without getting zapped to shreds by the clouds, or having a bolt thrown in his face, unless he wants to play cheap and let his razorfin do the fighting, but it's just so easy to dodge that thing that he will resort to going to the surface for a belly flop and utterly be decimated. This match up is pretty sad for Terrafin because he has such little options, and no matter which of them he tries he is easily screwed.

I just spent the last hour on Lightning Rod with my 7 and 10 year old trying to "decimate" them ... I am not sure what strategy you were using with Terrafin, but we used Fin, Babies, and Body Slam and staying undergrounf to easily dispatch Lightning Rod even though he had several levels and heroics on Terrafin. I am unsure why you stated Terrafin "cant' get close" to LR when he has speed on LR and invulnerability when underground.

Quote: Mrmorrises

Bash vs. Lightning rod surprised me, but Bash can't get close without being zapped to oblivion by the clouds, and while he tries to get close, LR can chip away a lot of his health at range.

S2 Bash made even faster work of me playing Lightning Rod as, when rolling, the clouds do little to no damage on an upgraded Bash, do not stop or block him from rolling, and one "Roll" in to LR, stun, WowPow, and tail swipe took off about 350 health from Lightning Rod with less than 100 gone from Bash; who then, just repeats, 350 - 400 damage, rinses, and defeats Lightning Rod instantly.

I went in to these fights thinking I was "missing something" on Lightning Rod when I read you post; maybe the Lightning "stunned" opponents like in S:SA. What I learned, though, is that my thoughts and Tashiji's comments remain in tact even after this testing and didn't see anything that made LR able to compete again Tier S or A characters; specifically the ones you called out. Maybe I am still missing something in the play style, but really did tried everything in combination and in practice.

EDIT: Cleaned up wording to be clearer and less "aggressive" ... apologies.

Quote: Slivers

Quote: Mrmorrises

Terrafin can't get close without getting zapped to shreds by the clouds, or having a bolt thrown in his face, unless he wants to play cheap and let his razorfin do the fighting, but it's just so easy to dodge that thing that he will resort to going to the surface for a belly flop and utterly be decimated. This match up is pretty sad for Terrafin because he has such little options, and no matter which of them he tries he is easily screwed.

I just spent the last hour on Lightning Rod with my 7 and 10 year old trying to "decimate" them ... I have no idea on on Terrafin S2 and S1 what strategy your opponent is using with Terrafin, but Fin, Babies, and Body Slam were able to easily dispatch Lightning Rod even though he had several levels and heroics on Terrafin. How you even claim Terrafin, who has speed and invulnerability underground, "cant' get close" to LR baffles me completely.

Quote: Mrmorrises

Bash vs. Lightning rod surprised me, but Bash can't get close without being zapped to oblivion by the clouds, and while he tries to get close, LR can chip away a lot of his health at range.

S2 Bash made even faster work of me playing Lightning Rod since, when rolling, the clouds do little to no damage on an upgraded Bash, do not stop or block him from rolling, and one "Roll" in to LR, stun, WowPow, and tail swipe took off about 350 health from Lightning Rod with less than 100 gone from Bash; who then, just repeats, 350 - 400 damage, rinses, and defeats Lightning Rod instantly.

These are but two examples, and I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I actually thought I was "missing something" on Lightning Rod when I read you post; maybe the Lightning "stunned" opponents like in S:SA. What I learned, though, is that my thoughts and Tashiji's comments are supported with over an hour of testing done against all the "losers" you posed and me coming away shaking my head in frustration with your comments.

He can't close because if he is above ground hell get hurt and they stop his attacks.

LR's Clouds 10 > TF's Babies 8

Why would he ever be above ground, that's my point? Babies are launched from underground. Belly flop is performed from underground. WowPow is used and he is instantly back underground firing more babies ....

^ Which is why you burrow UNDERGROUND. I don't have but even if he did get hurt by the clouds, they only do 10 damage, he'll need to rely on Elemental power for actual damage with the clouds.

Not really, he still deals some pretty powerful punishment even without elemental bonus, on typhoon titan.

Just a little quick question for anyone good who as , WHY is he B tier in Paramushroom Promotion? I find it ridulous, it's just like 's Battle Dozer.

Quote: Slivers

Quote: Mrmorrises

Terrafin can't get close without getting zapped to shreds by the clouds, or having a bolt thrown in his face, unless he wants to play cheap and let his razorfin do the fighting, but it's just so easy to dodge that thing that he will resort to going to the surface for a belly flop and utterly be decimated. This match up is pretty sad for Terrafin because he has such little options, and no matter which of them he tries he is easily screwed.

I just spent the last hour on Lightning Rod with my 7 and 10 year old trying to "decimate" them ... I have no idea on on Terrafin S2 and S1 what strategy your opponent is using with Terrafin, but Fin, Babies, and Body Slam were able to easily dispatch Lightning Rod even though he had several levels and heroics on Terrafin. How you even claim Terrafin, who has speed and invulnerability underground, "cant' get close" to LR baffles me completely.

Quote: Mrmorrises

Bash vs. Lightning rod surprised me, but Bash can't get close without being zapped to oblivion by the clouds, and while he tries to get close, LR can chip away a lot of his health at range.

S2 Bash made even faster work of me playing Lightning Rod since, when rolling, the clouds do little to no damage on an upgraded Bash, do not stop or block him from rolling, and one "Roll" in to LR, stun, WowPow, and tail swipe took off about 350 health from Lightning Rod with less than 100 gone from Bash; who then, just repeats, 350 - 400 damage, rinses, and defeats Lightning Rod instantly.

These are but two examples, and I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I actually thought I was "missing something" on Lightning Rod when I read you post; maybe the Lightning "stunned" opponents like in S:SA. What I learned, though, is that my thoughts and Tashiji's comments are supported with over an hour of testing done against all the "losers" you posed and me coming away shaking my head in frustration with your comments.

Well since you're being derogatory about it, I will tell you I was fighting S1 characters, so I cant give any input on your loss to S2 Bash and Terrafin, but hey, a win against S1 characters still counts.

I don't know, I haven't even played Paramushroom Promotion yet. Our one Shroom Boom is on the other path. I can't give you an answer for the tier placement, but I'm sure it's been discussed. My gut says C, but seriously, that's just reading move descriptions and damage/range numbers.

Battledozer, S2 anyway, is majorly improved over S:SA. He contends with the B guys just by being Megadozer Lite.

EDIT: And yes, wins over S1 characters count, but there's a major tumbling effect going on with the tiers where S2 are pushing most of S1 down the ladder. To even rise to D would be inconsistent with what's happening to the other S1s. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean the same thing to beat S1 Bash as it does to beat the buzzsaw of death that is S2 Bash. We just need to note our findings with S1 or S2 to eliminate confusion, that could save a lot of arguments.

Quote: LightSpyro13

Just a little quick question for anyone good who as , WHY is he B tier in Paramushroom Promotion? I find it ridulous, it's just like 's Battle Dozer.

It's ridiculous, not ridulous. And look on page 4 for

MY gut says D or E since I tried it and I just do not like it at all. The mushroom ring is completely useless on this path, the paratroopers are still useless no matter what you do, and Shroomboom heavily lacks defense. I really hate it that much, I can't even wait until level 15 before I record since this path is so unbearable.

This video (from a guy named wdrmz instead of me this time) better explains it for me, watch and learn plz.

Paratroopers are not useless, because you keep spamming them, and they fall like crazy, and your opponent can't avoid them, and the Lock And Load is an amazing upgrade also.

I like the paratroopers for the sole reason that camping is a very, very popular tactic in Giants, and they are a fairly effective way at getting to campers that also deal fair damage.

Plus, they help with doing camping yourself.

Quote: Mrmorrises

Well since you're being derogatory about it, I will tell you I was fighting S1 characters, so I cant give any input on your loss to S2 Bash and Terrafin, but hey, a win against S1 characters still counts.

Apologies ... cleaned things up a bit as it wasn't meant as derogatory just confused with the difference in results.

Quote: Slivers

Quote: Mrmorrises

Well since you're being derogatory about it, I will tell you I was fighting S1 characters, so I cant give any input on your loss to S2 Bash and Terrafin, but hey, a win against S1 characters still counts.

Apologies ... cleaned things up a bit as it wasn't meant as derogatory just confused with the difference in results.

No problem I suppose it's understandable that when someone says something you vastly disagree with, that you would show some sort of a critical attitude.

Quote: weebbby

Paratroopers are not useless, because you keep spamming them, and they fall like crazy, and your opponent can't avoid them, and the Lock And Load is an amazing upgrade also.

"Paratroopers are totally useless. Even though you can keep spamming them like crazy and can shoot 3 at once, they fall VERY slowly and your opponent can easily avoid them, the Lock N Load is an amazing upgrade though".

Fixed it for you, helpful in story mode, but in real life no one's just gonna sit around and wait to have the parachutes rain like crazy on him/her. The only thing I like is the Lock N Load.

Quote: Tashiji

I like the paratroopers for the sole reason that camping is a very, very popular tactic in Giants, and they are a fairly effective way at getting to campers that also deal fair damage.

What do you mean by "camping"? Do you mean just remaining stationary in one spot?

Yes. Finding hiding places and staying in them for as much of the battle as possible.

I'd rather just keep on moving, the simple way to avoid the dumb paratroopers. It's even easy avoiding them with the slowest characters like the Giants or . Did I mention that the Paratroopers also leave him vulnerable, even if he's inside his mushroom ring?

Anyway here's my video of Season 2 on Brawler. I find the Wow Pow slightly more useful here than Sandhog (that review shall come later), since Sandhog is so nimble that it roughens the controls. Kind of like a issue. Sorry about the distorted audio, I've been trying to fix this and nothing worked so far. I'll fix it in the future.

Quote: LightSpyro13

Anyway here's my video of Season 2 on Brawler. I find the Wow Pow slightly more useful here than Sandhog (that review shall come later), since Sandhog is so nimble that it roughens the controls. Kind of like a issue. Sorry about the distorted audio, I've been trying to fix this and nothing worked so far. I'll fix it in the future.

Great!

Next can you do Sandhog... Pretty please?

This is going to sound crazy, but I would honestly bump S1 Blademaster Ignitor to C-tier. The changes to sword collision detection alone make him comparable to any other melee's DPS, and honestly, he'd probably even be a B-tier brawler if he had a little more HP or something to help him like S2's blue flame. But he's certainly not D-tier anymore; the sword is actually rather formidable since it can, well, actually connect with things in Giants.

Incidentally, I think Eye of the Storm Warnado can take Blademaster's old spot in D. Charge time for an interruptable 35-damage pound attack is unacceptable, for one, because 35 is no longer medium-high damage. Secondly, delay between spin dashes has increased ever-so-slightly, but it's noticeable. Finally, tiny Warnados make no effort to direct themselves at anything this time, whereas they had just a smidge of being aimable before. The tornado attack has always left a lot to be desired and still does. +40 armor (-13% damage reduction via blocks) is his one redeeming quality, and let's face it, an armor boost doesn't equal a tier placement. Given that many of the other C-tier characters had to receive substantial game engine/metagame buffs to even be in that tier to begin with, I think it's about time the cascade effect claimed Warnado. He just doesn't win much against C-level competition or better, not to mention his inability to claim so much as a single win from his elemental strength to Earth.

Finally, I would put Wasp Stormer Swarm in B. Had to borrow my nephew's Swarm to even test this since they were so restrictive with path swapping, but from what I've been able to ascertain, he is a low-level Giant on that path. Here are the reasons why:

1) Swarm form is VERY SLOW. Even fully upgraded, you never once receive a speed boost. So, contact damage, which is actually the basis of Wasp Stormer's entire style of combat, is not easy to come by. The basis of the entire path is flawed in a game where nearly all characters can outrun it, and it hurts all of the other abilities as a result.

2) The axe form, his most powerful attack (100 damage) is narrow, linear, and short-range. Ergo, easy to dodge, hard to collect on for Swarm. It doesn't matter how much damage a move does if you can't connect with it, and since you are also quite slow in swarm form, I think it's time to get used to the idea of missing constantly with this.

3) Insectsplosion, which is the best move of swarm form overall, is burdened by the same flaw as any other part of the equation--you have to be in swarm form to execute it. Even if you fly right up next to a slower foe, activate swarm form, and then trigger Insectsplosion, there is a good chance they will have moved out of range by the time you could connect.

So, why even B then? Well, it all boils down to HP again, and the fact that characters in C and lower are still going to have trouble cutting through 1000+ no matter how the Giant is played. Even without choosing an upgrade path at all, every Giant is at least formidable enough to (barring elemental advantages) beat the C guys, and Wasp Stormer, for all its flaws, is certainly miles better than having no path at all. He does fine against enough of the B guys to belong there, regardless of Barbarous Avenger being a deserved tier higher.

I vote for Lumbering Laser Tree Rex to be placed in A Tier, or move Treefolk Charger down to B.
I find the laser path to be must better than the charging path.
His melee attacks do the same amount of damage on either path.

His charge only gets about a 10 Damage boost, and his elbow drop only does 50ish damage. 30+50 is only 80 damage and the elbow drop is difficult to land.

The laser path shoots fairly fast 12 damage in 3 shot bursts. His charged laser does 100 damage. Charges very quickly and locks on to enemies at medium range. It is also far easier to land than a charge+elbow drop combo which does 20 less damage.


I also think Bouncer is underestimated, as his Soul Gem (Charge up fists) are highly spammable and do lots of damage. Around 80 and they home in on targets. In one match he was able to destroy Dino Rang (on sunrise towers) from his spawn location. He literally just shot his fists at Dino Rang who was trying to approach. Killed him without even moving from his spawn location.

I'm gonna have to disagree with GSXL on this one, I find Treefolk Charge better than Lumbering Laserer.

The Pod Maker doesn't work in PvP and is completely useless there, and the Sun Skewer only increased about like 1-4 damage. The Charge shot is really the only good thing he's got on that path. It does a lot of damage and it fires very quickly, but unfortunately it is short-ranged and he can't move for a moment, leaving him open to attack. Plus, he's still slow-moving and is so big, letting him take quite a lot of damage from the opponent's attacks even though he has a lot of health as a GIant. Lumbering Laserer should stay in B, kind of a one-trick pony.

Treefolk Charge makes him more agile and grants him a better arsenal of moves. Without this path, the Charge does not last very long nor is it very fast. The Lightfooted upgrade is what makes the path so good, the Elbow Drop also does 56 damage which is fairly decent. Combine it with the Stampede that does 35 damage and you can rack up 85 damage, it can also get at least some use out of the Woodpecker Pal (which is generally useless in my opinion, he attacks so slowly. But he is good for bring a bonus amount of pain).

I have my Tree rex on Treefolk charger, and the laser is already spammable enough, but the upgrades for the sequoia stampede on it are heplful t

Quote: LightSpyro13

I'm gonna have to disagree with GSXL on this one, I find Treefolk Charge better than Lumbering Laserer.

The Pod Maker doesn't work in PvP and is completely useless there, and the Sun Skewer only increased about like 1-4 damage. The Charge shot is really the only good thing he's got on that path. It does a lot of damage and it fires very quickly, but unfortunately it is short-ranged and he can't move for a moment, leaving him open to attack. Plus, he's still slow-moving and is so big, letting him take quite a lot of damage from the opponent's attacks even though he has a lot of health as a GIant. Lumbering Laserer should stay in B, kind of a one-trick pony.

Treefolk Charge makes him more agile and grants him a better arsenal of moves. Without this path, the Charge does not last very long nor is it very fast. The Lightfooted upgrade is what makes the path so good, the Elbow Drop also does 56 damage which is fairly decent. Combine it with the Stampede that does 35 damage and you can rack up 85 damage, it can also get at least some use out of the Woodpecker Pal (which is generally useless in my opinion, he attacks so slowly. But he is good for bring a bonus amount of pain).

i dont even have the woodpecker pal. and, lumbering laserer makes him a nice hybrid. if they get close, hold A and do a shockwave slam. and, when it upgrades 3 dmg, it adds up. 1 tap of the B button will now do 36 dmg instead of 27, and the charge is amazing. also, yo dont get as much dmg done to you. i vote laserer moving up.

Quote: LightSpyro13

Quote: weebbby

Paratroopers are not useless, because you keep spamming them, and they fall like crazy, and your opponent can't avoid them, and the Lock And Load is an amazing upgrade also.

"Paratroopers are totally useless. Even though you can keep spamming them like crazy and can shoot 3 at once, they fall VERY slowly and your opponent can easily avoid them, the Lock N Load is an amazing upgrade though".

Fixed it for you, helpful in story mode, but in real life no one's just gonna sit around and wait to have the parachutes rain like crazy on him/her. The only thing I like is the Lock N Load.

Don't twist my words. The slow fall doesn't matter, because you can full the whole screen with them, while using NO other attacks, just running around launching Paratroopers, nothing else, I've never lost using it, even against some A/S tier characters.

^ Yeah it does, because since they fall very slowly they are very easy to avoid even though you can spam them. Plus, it leaves vulnerable when using it and he is not very good in close range. The Lock N Load is great though.

Personally, both Tree Rexes are obviously A-tier to me, so I second GSXL's recommendation of Lumbering Laserer, but disagree that Treefolk Charger needs to move. Regardless of which is better or worse between the two, the fact is that both will win over .500 in A, lose over .500 in S, and dominate B or below. Really, that's the only factor we need to consider.

EDIT: And I reset Shroom Boom to try this for myself, but yes, Paramushroom Promotion is very much a B-tier character. He has a simple, easily-abused strategy that really works well against characters who are less than exceptional. Pop a plain mushroom shield, no augments necessary, and spam virtually the whole arena with paratroopers. You can fill the screen, and it is VERY hard to dodge, because although they fire into the air, the "attack" animation almost immediately teleports very close to the ground, giving very little time to move. Yes, 16 damage is low, but keep in mind you're camping in any arena-based campsite you can find, AND behind your mushroom shield. Also keep in mind how rapidly they can be fired, and the "sticky" DoT--it adds up. The exploding slingshrooms are nice for damage and in a pinch, as well. It's a surprisingly effective PVP path, and I would defend B-tier for Paramushroom Promotion, even though I wouldn't put him any higher.

The other path is the one with problems for Shroom Boom. The same problems as Melon Master Camo, to be honest; inability to force opponents to close in on your medium-range, circular AoE attack for long enough to hit them with it. Paramushroom Promotion wins battles through damage-over-time and defense, and it's versatile. The shield path is based entirely on the shield, making it rather... untenable against good characters. He's probably C or D.

I think I've heard enough about Lightning Rod / Typhoon Titan to at least move him to D, so I'll do that.

Things are tricky for me here, because both the pro-LR and anti-LR sides are putting up pretty decent-sounding arguments, but both are saying completely polar oposite things: When one side says Bash can't approach LR without getting "decimated", the other side brings up DPS numbers that systematicly prove how LR cannot hope to deal X ammount of damage to Bash in X ammount of time. Etcetera, etcetera. All the arguments seem to sound this way to me, and things just don't add up.
I can only say that i'm erring on the side of the anti-LRs for now, simply because their arguments are sounding more reasonable because they talk more in terms of specific game mechanics, whereas pro-LRs just seem to be using words like "decimate" without describing enough about what that means.

As an avenue to pursue that might clear things up a little, perhaps both sides should be considering the opponents we fight with here: Is the Terrafin user who gets "destroyed" by Lightning Rod actually good at using Terrafin normally? Does that opponent make good use of Sandhog's usual burrowing and stalling tactics to win like the should against characters who aren't Lightning Rod? This applies to the anti-LR arguers as well: are you or your friends using Lightning Rod properly yourselves? Are you being too aggressive, or two defensive? Are you utilising all of his attacks in combination with eachother? Remember that I've hardly used Lightning Rod before myself (other than an un-upgraded one in Story mode), so at the end of the day I don't really know what i'm talking about here. If people need me to understand their arguments, they're going to have to be clear about the game mecahnics that are causing him to win or lose in the way he does.


Anyway, next topic: Shroomboom
Again, i'm getting oposite arguments here, but thankfully these ones are about a more specific mechanic: Most people are saying that the Paratroopers on the Paramushroom Promotion path can be spammed and spread accross the battlefield so much that they are unavoidable, and this bodes well with camping tactics. Meanwhile, LightSpyro13 in particular has been insistent in claiming that the paratroopers move so slowly that the opponent can dodge them by practically walking out from under them.

I'd like to see the actual mechanics of this Paratrooper-dodging thing examined: Can people give details on what characters they are using, how fast they are moving while the paratroopers are hitting/missing them, including what Heroic challenges they have completed that might affect speed?

• Lightning Rod / Typhoon Titan (series 1) moved to D Tier.
  
• Tree Rex / Lumbering Laserer moved to A Tier.
  
• Ignitor / Blademaster (series 1) moved to C Tier, until further opinions are expressed.
  
• Warnado / Eye of the Storm moved to D Tier, until further opinions are expressed.
  
• Swarm / Wasp Stormer placed in B. I'm happy to move him when further opinions are expressed.
  

Any thoughts on where Shroomboom / Barrier Boost should go?

The thing about the paratroopers is that you simply hold the button down, like Drobot, and he fires three per wave fairly rapidly. I believe 9 can be active at any given time, and they make some effort to home in on the target--not as much as Zook's mortars, but some. They fire quickly, start to descend from the top of the screen, and then immediately teleport to right where they are about to land. The whole process takes no longer than about a second and a half, from the firing of the paratroopers to when they land. They're umbrella-shaped, and can be fired in various directions, or while running away, which helps shield his escape (they land behind him if he's running), and increases the area of effect. And again, let's not forget that his exploding slingshrooms do 35~ish while also being quick-ish to fire, so it's not like he's a one-trick pony on offense. He can bring the pain when he has to, and play it safe with paratroopers essentially every other time.

Granted, they are not unavoidable, and characters with a fast charge attack can lead Shroom Boom essentially in circles. Nor do they do a ton of damage, so characters who can truly pump out murder-by-number on their opponents will end up doing the same to him. However, if you stop to attack, or are already standing still when the "teleport" mentioned above occurs, there's no hope for dodging. It requires a constant state of movement to keep ahead, because these things will be RAINING on this build if Shroomy just knows to hold down the attack button and not press it individually. The list of advantages he does have give him the necessary C-and-below slaughter effect that guys in B and above need to keep their places. Unless you're specifically geared to do so, he's difficult to approach and highly damaging to pursue.

Where it pertains to Heroics and EXP, all of my characters are maxed. Let me be clear that I'm not saying you can't outrun the paratroopers; it's easy to do with the proper charge attacks. That makes him susceptible to Bash, Stealth Elf and the like. Not Slam Bam because Life > Water; he devours Slam Bam, shielding an important would-be vulnerability to a common character there. Gets torn to bits by Ghost Roaster, but he's uncommon and a bit of a lowbie, so it's not like this fight is going to be taking place often. Characters along those lines are his main problem, but fortunately, there aren't many. In fact, Ghost Roaster is the only guy we tested in C and below who didn't have enormous trouble with Shroomy.

S-Rank is another matter, though. He can't keep up with any of them. Loses decisively to Chop Chop and Hex for elemental reasons, Stump Smash because he can't hold up to acorn spam, Drill Sergeant because paratroopers are outrun, Double Trouble via Eldritch Beam, Terrafin for burrowing reasons, Bash through sheer damage, Crusher through sheer HP, Ignitor because SotF is ideal to wreck Shroomy, and Flameslinger because he runs the same style of offense as Shroom Boom himself but with better escaping prowess. It's no good for Shroom Boom that high on the list, every S-tier character we tested (all of them) simply annihilated him.

A is a little different. He beats Slam Bam easy, same for Wham-Shell; Shroom Boom is powerful enough by the numbers to make an elemental advantage mean a great deal. Chill causes problems with full +Speed heroics and winged hat, because if she can keep just barely ahead of the paratroopers, ice lance spam will eventually take Shroom Boom out. I'd at best call that one even. Also even are Zook and S2 Marksman, since his arrow volleys don't set anything on fire. He has select wins and can put up an okay fight in A, but I'd hardly consider placing him there. Especially with such a large Undead and fellow, better Life-type presence in the tier.

B works great for him. S2 Vampiric Warrior and all builds of Cynder or Fright Rider will destroy you, but other than that, it's even or better odds, with Shroomy especially cleaning up on Water types and B-tier melee/mid-rangers.

C-tier and below are just sheer annihilation, with the exception of Ghost Roaster. A strong Undead element this game has left the lower tiers mostly free for the picking for a character like Shroom Boom, who barely has to contend with an elemental disadvantage at all as he fights the guys below him, most of whom are also too slow or weak to mount much of a fight to begin with.

Any character specifically mentioned by name was tested, but many more who I'm not bothering to specify were tested and defeated. I was battling Vhraina, who is equal in skill to me, but was also playing Paramushroom Promotion for the first time and doing incredibly well. He's intuitive, easy to use, and based on his style of offense, it's easy to predict a tier for him. I seriously think we got it right the first time, and he's solid B.