darkSpyro

Quote: Earth-Dragon

Look guys.....I love Jet-Vac. I really do. But this is PvP effectiveness, not story worth. And even in Story he's probably the third best air and only in some situations. As far as looks go, he's great, though I wish he had wings. Adding up the volume of matches against the entire list, he is not a 50/50 wins/losses character. On Bird Blaster in Particular. I'm about done with this PvP showdown in my sig and Jet-Vac has been the weakest participant so far.

Here's a question for everyone:

Who are the average and below characters in Giants?

So far almost every single toon has been recommended at B or above. I sound like a broken record, but there just seems to be too much bias and everyone seems to win more then loose which just doesn't add up.

Then why don't you make your own topic?

Quote: Skybagel

Quote: Earth-Dragon

Look guys.....I love Jet-Vac. I really do. But this is PvP effectiveness, not story worth. And even in Story he's probably the third best air and only in some situations. As far as looks go, he's great, though I wish he had wings. Adding up the volume of matches against the entire list, he is not a 50/50 wins/losses character. On Bird Blaster in Particular. I'm about done with this PvP showdown in my sig and Jet-Vac has been the weakest participant so far.

Here's a question for everyone:

Who are the average and below characters in Giants?

So far almost every single toon has been recommended at B or above. I sound like a broken record, but there just seems to be too much bias and everyone seems to win more then loose which just doesn't add up.

Then why don't you make your own topic?

This is a collaborative project. He feels that some people are developing bias in their reviews, and he has stated hhis concern. Nothing to make a new topic on.

Well, I'm sick of him "stating his concern", we all think this list is pretty accurate.

Quote: Earth-Dragon

Here's the biggest question:

Do you need to use all 3 babies before being able to combine them into a super baby or can you do it with one?

The answer to that question will determine placement. If it's time consuming and you need all three to combine, then it's going to take to long and too many things can go wrong so she should be in the same spot. If you can create it by just holding in the button, it may, and probably will, move her up.

Tested since you said this. Just need the one baby. Superbaby does the same base damage (60) for both paths. The major advantage of Medea, then, becomes the fact that she can have the four other babies immediately on the field and grown alongside Superbaby, while Tempest has the charged roar. Can't say what this means for her tier-wise since I haven't played her at all in PVP yet, but game physics testing complete.

Quote: Skybagel

Well, I'm sick of him "stating his concern", we all think this list is pretty accurate.

And I'm concerned about this too, it's not just Earth-Dragon. I really feel like people are neglecting to post the circumstances of their battles, and instead just focus on the results. Yes, you may have taken out S2 Hex with Bird Blaster Jet-Vac (hypothetical of course, because... lawl), but was your opponent of equivalent skill? What arenas do you play on? Are you one of those people who use items, and still factor wins where you got a healing potion and your opponent got nothing into the equation? What of Heroic Challenges? Are the opponents you're fighting even the same level?

Basically, what I, Earth-Dragon and others are wondering is this; how come every single character seems to be a winner in somebody's eyes? I hate to say it, but this game really isn't like that. Some characters are just plain better than others, and beating them in circumstances that shouldn't count towards this list... well, shouldn't count towards this list.

Personally, I battle at L:15, no items, full Heroics if possible and 0-versus-0 Heroics if not, and my opponent is approximately just as good at the game as I am on any given day. I think the chances that I'm producing biased results here are fairly slim, but can we say that for everyone else on the forum? Who do you play against, and how are the fights conducted? Do you use items? Is care being taken to ensure equal Heroics and levels? Because those factors all completely transform who is going to win, and I don't feel that is being fully taken into account in this topic. That's why several people have expressed their concerns, and why I'm expressing mine now.

Quote: LightSpyro13

^ Yep, B tier best suits Barrier Boost (but not Paramushroom Promotion, it is sooo easy to avoid and should be E tier or D tier).

Paramushroom Promotion is far from D or E. It gives him an even stronger control over the battlefield and allows him to constantly attack even during a retreat. Sure, the Paramushrooms are slow, but they aren't your main damage dealer. Opponents will still attempt to avoid them while trying to avoid your regular attacks, which shoot faster and do a little more damage down this path. His mushroom ring is still a good defensive option as well, since it puts yet another object on the field between him and his enemies.

My testing with Barrier Boost is still early, but I think it may even out with Paramushroom Promotion in the end. He trades damage and offense for a stronger defense, but still manages to frustrate approaching enemies with his mushroom ring. I'm curious to see how he fares against stronger ranged characters however.

My problem is placement. I'm not sure where he lands between B and C. He's not an outright monster by any means, but with good field awareness and strategy he can be a frustrating opponent.

Quote: Skybagel

Well, I'm sick of him "stating his concern", we all think this list is pretty accurate.

You ever heard of a bell curve?

I forgot. Everyone is a winner these days.

Quote: LightSpyro13

^ Yep, B tier best suits Barrier Boost (but not Paramushroom Promotion, it is sooo easy to avoid and should be E tier or D tier).

Ya know pony. I really appreciate the fact that I do see you popping certain landers into the bottom. It doesn't matter whether people agree or not, you at least bring the average opinion down on many of the guys.

Keep it up girl.

Quote: Earth-Dragon

Quote: LightSpyro13

^ Yep, B tier best suits Barrier Boost (but not Paramushroom Promotion, it is sooo easy to avoid and should be E tier or D tier).

Ya know pony. I really appreciate the fact that I do see you popping certain landers into the bottom. It doesn't matter whether people agree or not, you at least bring the average opinion down on many of the guys.

Keep it up girl.

[groans and growls] Why do I even bother?...... No offense, but you're really starting to get on my nerves.

^it was a failed attempt at a complement.

No offense but...........

the page is now a big argument.

Quote: Tashiji

Quote: Earth-Dragon

Here's the biggest question:

Do you need to use all 3 babies before being able to combine them into a super baby or can you do it with one?

The answer to that question will determine placement. If it's time consuming and you need all three to combine, then it's going to take to long and too many things can go wrong so she should be in the same spot. If you can create it by just holding in the button, it may, and probably will, move her up.

Tested since you said this. Just need the one baby. Superbaby does the same base damage (60) for both paths. The major advantage of Medea, then, becomes the fact that she can have the four other babies immediately on the field and grown alongside Superbaby, while Tempest has the charged roar. Can't say what this means for her tier-wise since I haven't played her at all in PVP yet, but game physics testing complete.

Quote: Skybagel

Well, I'm sick of him "stating his concern", we all think this list is pretty accurate.

And I'm concerned about this too, it's not just Earth-Dragon. I really feel like people are neglecting to post the circumstances of their battles, and instead just focus on the results. Yes, you may have taken out S2 Hex with Bird Blaster Jet-Vac (hypothetical of course, because... lawl), but was your opponent of equivalent skill? What arenas do you play on? Are you one of those people who use items, and still factor wins where you got a healing potion and your opponent got nothing into the equation? What of Heroic Challenges? Are the opponents you're fighting even the same level?

Basically, what I, Earth-Dragon and others are wondering is this; how come every single character seems to be a winner in somebody's eyes? I hate to say it, but this game really isn't like that. Some characters are just plain better than others, and beating them in circumstances that shouldn't count towards this list... well, shouldn't count towards this list.

Personally, I battle at L:15, no items, full Heroics if possible and 0-versus-0 Heroics if not, and my opponent is approximately just as good at the game as I am on any given day. I think the chances that I'm producing biased results here are fairly slim, but can we say that for everyone else on the forum? Who do you play against, and how are the fights conducted? Do you use items? Is care being taken to ensure equal Heroics and levels? Because those factors all completely transform who is going to win, and I don't feel that is being fully taken into account in this topic. That's why several people have expressed their concerns, and why I'm expressing mine now.

...





-----

i battle at lv 10-15, no items, food, and usually sunrise tower or lockdown islands

@ Skybagel - Can I use my acceptance speech to beg everyone to stop arguing and get back on topic? If so, I accept wholeheartedly.

Double post. Sorry

Quote: Thumpterra12

i battle at lv 10-15, no items, food, and usually sunrise tower or lockdown islands

The only possible issue I see here is you are playing on two areas where trapping is the fundamental game of the stage. This will favor certain Skylanders. Maybe mix in some mushroom grove or some other stage where you have more escape options. It's a purchasable stage in game so you should have it or be able to get it easily.

Just some food for thought.

Quote: Tashiji

@ Skybagel - Can I use my acceptance speech to beg everyone to stop arguing and get back on topic? If so, I accept wholeheartedly.

*Salutes* SIR YES SIR. PERMISSION GRANTED.

I normally battle on Cyclops Square, level 10-15 (mostly 15), no food, power ups, or arena hazards. I play against someone who is a little bit worse then me.

I don't mind the arena hazards, food, or power-ups. I feel certain Skylanders are fundamentally designed to be able to utilize these things more effectively, where as others have it as an inherent weakness. I think it is good others don't use them though, as it gives the straight up do more damage to you then you can to me fighters an edge in one instance and the elusive, drag this thing out and wear ya down combatants an edge on another side.

All in all, the main thing has got to be having all available powers, same level, equal heroics, and changing venues. As long as those are the same

More opinions on Siren Griffin so it can go in a tier! I still think it should be C tier.

I think I should point out here that I agree with the Earth-Dragon line of thinking as well.

Whether reasonable or not, I'm having worries that people are viewing a tier list like a rating system for how good or bad the skylanders are, instead of the competitive grouping system that it actually is.

You have to keep in mind that the whole spirit of a Tier system lies in the idea that if you were to make every Skylander fight every other Skylander, certain Skylanders will always beat certain others, certain Skylanders will always lose against certain others, and certain characters will always be evenly matched with certain others.
A Tier list is the system of natural groupings that emerges from this, where each group beats the characters from the lower groups, loses against the characters from the higher groups, and is evenly matched with the characters from its own group.

The coolness and power of each Skylander besides this doesn't matter: If a character beats certain characters and loses against certain other characters, then that defines what tier they are in, and nothing else.


Tashiji's points about consideration for the factors that affect individual battles are also really important, and I will make edits to the first post to re-iterate them.

I'm thinking of resetting my Jet Vac to try Jet Packateer, is it worth it for PvP? I've been hearing its crap, but Bird Blaster is doing terrible for me in PvP (like an E tier).

i will start doing more on troll factory. that explains why tree rex always wins. hes a beast on the open arenas, but gets murdered on bounce pad filled ones. that also explains why double trouble lost a lot. hes designed for the bounce pads.

Quote: Thumpterra12

i will start doing more on troll factory. that explains why tree rex always wins. hes a beast on the open arenas, but gets murdered on bounce pad filled ones. that also explains why double trouble lost a lot. hes designed for the bounce pads.

Tree Rex just plain always wins against most anyway ; )

Would people mind if I try to replace the full skylanders names in the tier list with their smiley pictures instead? I really need to free up character limit space in the first post somehow. In future tier list threads I will divide the first post across two posts.

Quote: EgoNaut

Would people mind if I try to replace the full skylanders names in the tier list with their smiley pictures instead? I really need to free up character limit space in the first post somehow. In future tier list threads I will divide the first post across two posts.

Yes, Please do.
And I belive WHirlwind UR Should be moved to lower c. I have Defeated Channeler DT ANd PBS Stealth Elf

^ I don't think anyone will have trouble figuring out which characters you mean. That's probably the best and most efficient way to free space without losing anything important.

*sigh
Never mind, this forum's got a smiley-per-post limit that stops me anyway. I'll just have to keep things brief when adding any extras to the top part of the first post.
With future tier lists, I will claim the first two posts in the thread, using the first post for the project descriptions and advice, and the second post for the tier list itself.

^ maybe there is other stuff you can edit. Try paraphrasing some stuff.

Quote: Earth-Dragon

^ maybe there is other stuff you can edit. Try paraphrasing some stuff.

Already done. Extensively.

Giant Killer designation is alittle redundant. It was a great idea, but it hadn't really bled down to the C tier showing that someone down there could thrash giants. Check with tash and sprout and pony, but I don't think it's necessary at this point. You assume S tier can take down all/most of the giants.

Maybe remove a disclaimer or two? It's seems like most people skip past it anyway and get right into arguing about why their favorite/least favorite character should be lower or higher in the list.

Quote: DocCroc

Maybe remove a disclaimer or two? It's seems like most people skip past it anyway and get right into arguing about why their favorite/least favorite character should be lower or higher in the list.

That's not reason enough to not include them!

After spending half an hour on it, I've given up trying to make any edits to the first post at all. For now it's fine as is.

EDIT: I did manage to fit some edits into the first post in the end.

I think that Treefolk Charger should go to the S Tier because the Elbow drop, which does around 56 damage, can hit more than one enemy and it also provides upgrade for your charge which gives makes your charge stronger and provides your woodpecker a chance to attack, which does 16 damage. I find that using the elbow drop and then use the smash, which does around 28 damage, on the enemies finishing them off is a very powerful and fast way (56(elbow drop+28(smash)+16(woodpecker=100 total damage) to take out a large number of enemies, which is way faster than defeating the enemies with the charged laser (which does 100 damage, but takes longer.)

Quote: Infinitus

I think that Treefolk Charger should go to the S Tier because the Elbow drop, which does around 56 damage, can hit more than one enemy and it also provides upgrade for your charge which gives makes your charge stronger and provides your woodpecker a chance to attack, which does 16 damage. I find that using the elbow drop and then use the smash, which does around 28 damage, on the enemies finishing them off is a very powerful and fast way (56(elbow drop+28(smash)+16(woodpecker=100 total damage) to take out a large number of enemies, which is way faster than defeating the enemies with the charged laser (which does 100 damage, but takes longer.)

In this thread we're only concerned with PvP, not Single Player.

Okay, Egonaut changed my reasoning so it works for PVP:

I think that Treefolk Charger should go to the S Tier because the Elbow drop, which does around 56 damage, can do good damage fast and it also provides upgrade for your charge which gives makes your charge stronger and provides your woodpecker a chance to attack, which does 16 damage. I find that using the elbow drop and then use the smash, which does around 28 damage, on your opponents can finish them off in a very powerful and fast way (56 damage - elbow drop+28 damage - smash +16 - woodpecker = 100 total damage) to take out your opponent really fast, which is way faster than defeating your opponent with the charged laser (which does 100 damage, but takes longer.) I also think that since giants are very slow, the charge allows him to go faster which with Giants speed plus strength makes them a really tough opponent.

Anybody need a video request to test out a character strength or pvp strategy? Anybody? Anybody?

I'm open for uploading video requests.

^ Sonic Boom Siren Griffin?


It is REALLLLLLY strong.

Ya got it, it's Series 1 though.

Quote: EgoNaut

Quote: DocCroc

Maybe remove a disclaimer or two? It's seems like most people skip past it anyway and get right into arguing about why their favorite/least favorite character should be lower or higher in the list.

That's not reason enough to not include them!

After spending half an hour on it, I've given up trying to make any edits to the first post at all. For now it's fine as is.

EDIT: I did manage to fit some edits into the first post in the end.

A new post may be required in the immediate future. If the current post isn't holding the information you need it to, then the sad truth is that, sixteen pages or not, this topic needs to die and a new one (with a link to the closed thread of course) created in its stead. Obviously the decision of whether or not to do this rests with you, but honestly, I don't think people will have any trouble identifying the new thread if one were to be made. If anything, a lot of the length of the current topic is fluff anyway; the real content is on the first page (with the tier list and rationale) and the last page (where debate is currently taking place), neither of which we would be deprived of if we had to migrate topics. Just a thought, though.

And yes, I am with Earth-Dragon on taking the (G) out for now, because what he's saying is completely true--we really have not expanded it to the lower tiers as intended, and the characters with the notation are assumed to be superior anyway due to higher tier placement. I don't want the idea gone forever, because obviously something like a prowess with Giants on a C-tier character is something that can and ultimately should be noted. It's simply that we don't have time right now to investigate this much, with so many characters still left to place and so many placements to solidify. The list isn't "done" enough for that kind of streamlining, and even though notations such as the (G) are something I would love to see included at the end of the day, the truth is that the position we find ourselves in currently is nowhere close to that hypothetical end of day at all.

EDIT: Also, a quickie question for the Terrafin players out there. I've been doing some testing with him lately, and I think I've found that his Wow Pow cannot be sustained indefinitely, and on your fourth bellyflop, you will be unable to go back under. This has happened to me literally every time I've chained bellyflops together, and while specifically testing for it. I am virtually certain it is not a matter of timing on my part, but a real limitation of his Wow Pow and an actual, exploitable weakness for a character badly in need of one. Obviously I'm not advocating a tier adjustment--both paths are S through and through, trust me--but I would definitely like to know from the experience of others just how exploitable this can be when looking for it. Just the knowledge that he MUST surface at least once in every four bellyflop attempts may leave him vulnerable to being "waited out" by the faster characters.

Quote: Tashiji

EDIT: Also, a quickie question for the Terrafin players out there. I've been doing some testing with him lately, and I think I've found that his Wow Pow cannot be sustained indefinitely, and on your fourth bellyflop, you will be unable to go back under. This has happened to me literally every time I've chained bellyflops together, and while specifically testing for it. I am virtually certain it is not a matter of timing on my part, but a real limitation of his Wow Pow and an actual, exploitable weakness for a character badly in need of one. Obviously I'm not advocating a tier adjustment--both paths are S through and through, trust me--but I would definitely like to know from the experience of others just how exploitable this can be when looking for it. Just the knowledge that he MUST surface at least once in every four bellyflop attempts may leave him vulnerable to being "waited out" by the faster characters.

I've noticed this too. I've never chained more than three times in a row with the dive. So I think it's an actual limitation that Terrafin's Wow Pow has.

I don't have series 2 Terrafin, but his Wow Pow seems like it would work better for Brawler if he could only Dive Burrow 4 times (Brawler was always better in my opinion), he'd probably have a better chance of fending for himself at the surface than Sandhog. Both paths still seem S tier though with the Wow Pow.

Also, a question for anyone who has S2 : How well does her Wow Pow work for PvP on either path? It sounds kinda cool, but also disappointing at the same time.

hey Tashiji, do you agree with Frozen Fury being down on C ?
after trying out both paths, I was thinking at least B

Quote: LightSpyro13

I don't have series 2 Terrafin, but his Wow Pow seems like it would work better for Brawler if he could only Dive Burrow 4 times (Brawler was always better in my opinion), he'd probably have a better chance of fending for himself at the surface than Sandhog. Both paths still seem S tier though with the Wow Pow.

Sandhog is still generally preferred because of contact damage with your fin (which chains very effectively with a bellyflop) and the ability to fire homing sharks from underground, the latter of which you should be using constantly between bellyflops. The two paths are close, though, because obviously there are some benefits to added melee prowess as you've said, and I very much agree they should inhabit the same tier.

Tashiji, have you ever said what path is better for Bouncer? I have RR but lots of people say I-BS is better. What path would you say should be higher on the list?

Honestly, my experiences with Bouncer at this point are very limited. He's been tested on both builds against a variety of other characters who have received more exposure, but he hasn't been the focus of a night of PVP by himself yet, so I don't know how either path fares against the characters I expect him to beat. I do know he is outmatched by S and A-tier for the most part, however. I predict Bouncer ends up no lower than C simply because of his Giant HP pool and the fact that almost any style of offense works fairly well when you have 1000~ health, but past that, I really need to work with him more to determine a real recommendation.

As for which path, I don't think the two will inhabit different tiers at the end of the day, and that's all I can say on the matter; they are close enough in strength to at least inspire debate.

Quote: Tashiji

Quote: EgoNaut

Quote: DocCroc

Maybe remove a disclaimer or two? It's seems like most people skip past it anyway and get right into arguing about why their favorite/least favorite character should be lower or higher in the list.

That's not reason enough to not include them!

After spending half an hour on it, I've given up trying to make any edits to the first post at all. For now it's fine as is.

EDIT: I did manage to fit some edits into the first post in the end.

A new post may be required in the immediate future. If the current post isn't holding the information you need it to, then the sad truth is that, sixteen pages or not, this topic needs to die and a new one (with a link to the closed thread of course) created in its stead. Obviously the decision of whether or not to do this rests with you, but honestly, I don't think people will have any trouble identifying the new thread if one were to be made. If anything, a lot of the length of the current topic is fluff anyway; the real content is on the first page (with the tier list and rationale) and the last page (where debate is currently taking place), neither of which we would be deprived of if we had to migrate topics. Just a thought, though.

And yes, I am with Earth-Dragon on taking the (G) out for now, because what he's saying is completely true--we really have not expanded it to the lower tiers as intended, and the characters with the notation are assumed to be superior anyway due to higher tier placement. I don't want the idea gone forever, because obviously something like a prowess with Giants on a C-tier character is something that can and ultimately should be noted. It's simply that we don't have time right now to investigate this much, with so many characters still left to place and so many placements to solidify. The list isn't "done" enough for that kind of streamlining, and even though notations such as the (G) are something I would love to see included at the end of the day, the truth is that the position we find ourselves in currently is nowhere close to that hypothetical end of day at all.

Right now, the first post can hold all the information it needs to, so a thread migration shouldn't be required.

If you think the (G) denotation should be retired for now, then I guess I'll remove it so we can concentrate on other things.
I'm considering leaving a note about Flameslinger S2 / Marksman though, just because that particular proficiency for Giants is one I find particularly cool and surprising. Any thoughts?

^ I think this is actually the best use for a (G) symbol. As the ability to contend with Giants is almost a requisite for S-rank presence, I think it's safe to take those ones off and just assume that higher tier placement means higher tier placement regardless of size. However, where it pertains to Marksman and other lower-tier characters who still contend with Giant-sized foes through specialized strengths, I totally agree with keeping the notation. It is worth noting.

Quote: Tashiji

^ I think this is actually the best use for a (G) symbol. As the ability to contend with Giants is almost a requisite for S-rank presence, I think it's safe to take those ones off and just assume that higher tier placement means higher tier placement regardless of size. However, where it pertains to Marksman and other lower-tier characters who still contend with Giant-sized foes through specialized strengths, I totally agree with keeping the notation. It is worth noting.

Noted.


Does anyone have other thoughts on Jet-Vac and Sonic Boom S2 / Siren Griffin?
I plan at least to preliminarily move Jet-Vac / Bird Blaster to D, but as for the others i'm not sure yet.