darkSpyro

Quote: black dragon

SpyroLUVA you are just begging for a flame war.

What are you talking about? A flame war has been in progress for ages!

Whoa, Zackeio. You go, dude! I skimmed much of your argument, but I agree with much of what I did see in it. Kudos to you for speaking out in spite of the consequences.

Makes me wish there was still a place for old-school Spyro fans to go, but all of those forums have died. The only active Spyro forums now (here and SpyroForum) are pretty riddled with LoS fans and general fandom inequality. Non LoS-fans can't just start a topic in the general boards (where it will get noticed) because it tends to get derailed and usurped, but if they start it in any board about the old games, it generally gets ignored.

Ah well. If anyone was interested enough, I'd consider starting a dA group/LiveJournal community/Yahoo group/something. Or we could all migrate to Hurricos. The main forum mod disappeared but I'm sure we could still bring up some activity there.

Quote: NEW_SpyroLUVA

Quote: black dragon

SpyroLUVA you are just begging for a flame war.

What are you talking about? A flame war has been in progress for ages!

Yeah, but a flame war always gets started by a fan who thinks one part of the franchise is better than the other, that half of the fanbase likes.

Quote: NEW_SpyroLUVA

Quote: black dragon

SpyroLUVA you are just begging for a flame war.

What are you talking about? A flame war has been in progress for ages!

Yeah but come on, a video about hate for one and love for the other.

Also Zackeio, nice job~

that's what i've always wondered!

No one is being made to read my posts or respond. They could just let everything I say breeze by, or roll right off them or however you want to put it. No one is being made to read my rants, or watch my videos. If a flame war starts, maybe I can be blamed for it due to my negative opinions, but I think those who respond are just as responsible for thier flaring tempers and what they say and how they say it as I am.

Well at least..They ain't as bad as those Console and PC fanboys

You say that now... D: You haven't been openly harassed by Cyndorks much, have you? To date, it is still the most annoying set of experiences I've ever had on the Internet. Heck, I haven't even drawn any LoS art in months and they still find me. >(

Quote: Razz

You say that now... D: You haven't been openly harassed by Cyndorks much, have you? To date, it is still the most annoying set of experiences I've ever had on the Internet. Heck, I haven't even drawn any LoS art in months and they still find me. >(

Wow, that sucks Dx

Maybe if you read some of their posts or talked to them, you might.

I think your rite about TLoS in fact i actualy like those games s little better than the classics. TEN is my most favourite......but i like ANB and DoTD aswell.


(i rate them all 5 stars)

Quote: Razz

You say that now... D: You haven't been openly harassed by Cyndorks much, have you? To date, it is still the most annoying set of experiences I've ever had on the Internet. Heck, I haven't even drawn any LoS art in months and they still find me. >(

Seriously? What do they say? Are they demanding more art, or flaming you for your depreciating image of Cynder in which she is very fat? Either way it's crappy of them to do so.

Zackeio makes a good point. Although the only problem was moticating myself to read it all

There's little the Cyndorks haven't said to me at this point, New_SpyroLUVA. Most of it I can't repeat here. Oddly, no one whined about the fat Cynder pic, but people complain about the nice ones all the time. And the less said about the people who find her attractive, the better. I get serious creeper comments from those types still. D:

I read a few of them

Quote: Razz

And I will personally throttle the first person who comes in whining "But ALL stories are derivative!" That is a giant load of dragon turds that I wish people would stop propagating. It's not true, it's a lazy argument, and it discredits the true imaginative power of humanity.

But if people look hard enough, they will see all stories as being based on others. This may not be because they are, but because the nit-pickers zoomed in on a few aspects of each and determined that it was close enough to say it was a copy.

--------------------------------------------

Regarding the idea of a character being the chosen one being cliche, well the sole alternative is just as cliche... the other option being for them to not be the chosen one. The only way to avoid this is not have not main character (or any characters), which has been done too. Just not as much.

The archetypes that we base most of our stories on are much larger than we give them credit for being. The people who most often use the "nothing new under the sun" argument are those who are justifying plagiarism or poor storytelling.

(A good example is the Eragon books, the fans of which claim that Paolini is just using the Hero's Journey when, in fact, he is specifically using the hero's journey as interpreted by George Lucas' Star Wars films. The difference being that the Hero's Journey is a common form of the Western story, while Star Wars is one man's particular version of that story. The first is an archetype from which many may draw inspiration, the second is a specific story that can be plagiarized.)

A story can be cliche without being cheesy or obnoxious. LoS had the potential to be such, but instead stooped to using its cliches as the entire substance of its story. Spyro (hero) is a poor copy of Frodo Baggins and Anakin Skywalker, Malefor (big bad) is obviously the Emperor, Cynder (damsel) is the Princess with a touch of Darth Vader, and Ignitus (elder) is Obi Wan. There is nothing in LoS that you can't find done better in at least a dozen other versions of the Hero's Journey. Heck, if you want to see something that is almost as cliched as LoS but manages to be one hundred times more original, go watch Jame's Cameron's "Avatar" and see what I mean. The writers of LoS were being lazy and there is no excuse for that, especially with all the money they wasted paying celebrities to do a job that professional voice actors would have done better for less.

As for characters/heroes only having one of two choices in the kind of hero they can be... You really need to read more. There are countless stories in which the hero is not preordained or has to save the world or anything you see in a cookie-cutter epic like LoS. Heck, even the original epic hero, Odysseus, isn't a chosen hero of prophecy. He's just a jerk who gets thrown into adventure for being a jerk. Frodo Baggins isn't a hero of prophecy, either. He was just a Hobbit who's life led him into some unfortunate circumstances and, in the end, he succumbed to the darkness but survived thanks to his friends. He's still a hero because he saw his quest to the end.

You missed the point, it is not that there is nothing new, but that people will fail to see it is they choose to.

If they are not chosen, then they are not chosen. And as you point out there are plenty of stories like that to.

Ah, I see what you were saying. That pretty much re-confirms my original point: it's an excuse for lazy storytelling.

After reading all of these posts, I'm thinking of taking my TEN and DOTD games to an FYE store when I'm on spring break. XD

(I have reasons to keep ANB... ^^; To be honest it was the only LoS game I enjoyed)

Zackeio deserves a truckload mixture of cookies and Skittles.

I understand why people dislike it, but i wasn't as clear when i wrote this. eah, you have your reasons, and they make sense. I just want to make it clear that i wasn't even TRYING to make you chng your opinion. I obviously like the games and others don't for thei own reasons. I never intended to start a big argument, but apparently i did.

Send him some sandwiches too

I don't think you've started much of an argument, Darby. This topic has some of the most interesting conversations in the whole forum.

I feel you, Aqua-Dragoness. I'm still not sure if I'll be keeping my copies of the LoS games or not. On the one hand, it's fun to collect things like this (I'll certainly be keeping the guidebooks) and I am keeping EtD, the one Spyro game worse than even DotD, but on the other hand... Complaining about EtD is a lot more fun and gratifying than playing any of LoS. So I'm not sure what to do. I've got a friend who will be getting the LoS trilogy from me if I do get rid of it, though. He loves them, mostly because of Ignitus, and I can't fault him for that.

Quote: Aura24

Quote: NEW_SpyroLUVA

Quote: black dragon

SpyroLUVA you are just begging for a flame war.

What are you talking about? A flame war has been in progress for ages!

Yeah, but a flame war always gets started by a fan who thinks one part of the franchise is better than the other, that half of the fanbase likes.

I ENFORCE THIS FLAME WAR

Quote: Darby

I understand why people dislike it, but i wasn't as clear when i wrote this. Yeah, you have your reasons, and they make sense. I just want to make it clear that i wasn't even TRYING to make you change your opinion. I obviously like the games and others don't for their own reasons. I never intended to start a big argument, but apparently i did.

You asked an honest to God question, Darby and you got your answer. Sometimes those who ask questions are disappointed by the results. Regardless, I think my post(s) should be the big cause for an argument (Thank God it didn't ) , BUT that's just me .

I'm just glad people understand what I feel about what transpired for TLOS. The fans for it do get on my nerves but honestly I don't HATE them, I just disagree with what they see in TLOS .

Do I still dislike TLOS, oh heck yeah, without a doubt I do. I just don't like it when I express my opinion and then get attacked by TLOS fans saying that I'm a Spyro hater, troll, or basher for opposing their opinion. I understand a large majority of people like TLOS, but seriously, this board isn't just for TLOS fans. If it were, then I'd wouldn't be here now would I?

All in all, I'm glad someone likes TLOS, despite my view points on it, at least it makes money in the name of Spyro the Dragon (*sigh* that's sounds so vain but I got nothing else better to say at current moment)... now if we just do something about that wretched wall , I'll be happy.

Look the only thing good we got out of TLOS were Cynder, The elders and Ignitus.

And sparx talking..If anything we will see them somehow in future reboots or games along with the orginial cast

You can not deny it my friends

And i see where you're coming from. I really didn't see the sexism in it or other problems with the games until you mentioned them. And I'm glad to know I didn't start an argument, really. I hate being in that situation.

I can't say as I agree with you on any of those points, Jackson117. I can't stand Cynder (or her fans), and we got elders and Sparx talking long before LoS (there were elder dragons in the first game and Sparx started talking as early as YotD, though he really started speaking in AHT). I'm indifferent toward Ignitus. It's nice to see a father figure for Spyro, but he's unfortunately cliched and doesn't really bring much to the table for me.

I haven't really seen any sexism...

The fact Cynder is the only female character.

I've noticed something, all the dragons you rescue in StD are all guys.

That isn't really sexism. I always thought sexism was DISCRIMINATING against someone because of gender. Cynder's just the only current female. Nothin' sexist about that.

Oh really?

Discrimination can come in many forms. Completely ignoring and typecasting an entire gender is discrimination. But if you want more reasons for LoS being sexist, here you go:

1. The only female, Cynder, is very obviously sexualized in terms of character design (this is clear in her dark form in ANB and so painfully obvious in DotD it hurts; large breast, curvy, slinky, big hips, fetishistic jewelry... The list goes on and on). I'll be the first to admit that she is literally the only reason I picked up ANB, and I am not alone in saying this. Did you notice the massive surge in LoS fans when DotD came out? Yeah, guess where most of them came from. Ever wonder why Spyro doesn't generate the kind of crazy fans Cynder does? The simple fact, whether you like it or not, is that a lot of people did and do find Cynder's design attractive.

2. The only female of note (Cynder) is either very evil or very helpless. She is not a strong female character in any way. Initially, her femininity just highlights how different she is from the good guys and, again, she is depicted as a very sexualised creature in terms of design, the way she speaks, and her actions. She leads an army of evil and is portrayed throughout ANB as a monster, giving the overall impression that a strong-willed, sexual woman is bad. When she is returned to her normal form, she is instantly weak and in need of rescue. Her role as the damsel persists throughout all of TEN (she runs away instead of facing her problems, is in need of rescue on multiple occasions, and is never given a chance to actually fight). In DotD, an attempt to make her appear strong is given, but it's twisted up with her being sexualized and, once again, Spyro has to save her and it is revealed that she was never in control of her actions (because girls are weak and just can't fight anything; Malefor says her entire roll was as bait for Spyro, which reinforces the nasty notion that it's okay for a girl to be a piece of meat). Spyro is always her mouthpiece in the game, he is given the leadership roll and acknowledged as being the strong one by multiple characters, and Cynder is frequently ignored or simply expected to be silent. When she is confronted with her own past, instead of owning up to it and being strong, she backs down and relies on Spyro to make her feel better (because a woman can't be strong without her man, obviously). And let us not forget that, where Spyro is capable of making great sacrifice for anyone, Cynder is often a voice of doubt in his ear and only does anything brave because she has no choice in the matter or because she is trying to validate her love for Spyro (basically, she gives up everything for his sake, which is one of the worst things you can teach young girls to do). Instead of being helpful, Cynder is often a nagging shrew at Spyro's side throughout the game.

3. The only other female in LoS, Nina (Sparx's mom), is literally a token character. She spouts two lines of generic cliche, fulfills the roll of the generic mother, and we never see her again. With this, LoS says there are two rolls women play: a good, quiet housewife or a wicked temptress who needs to be controlled and whose willful nature will eventually be subdued by the right man.

4. There is ample room in the trilogy for other female characters but they are never included. There should have been at least one, if not two, female Guardians. At least one of the creatures you meet as a friend in the games should have been female. Elora or Bianca or Sheila would have easily fit into any of the three games but every member of every race is male, except for Cynder. We've seen concept work for female moles in DotD, but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing any of them in the game.

Do you need me to keep going? Because I can. The sexism in LoS is ridiculous, though it may have been unintentional (the games were aimed at a demographic audience of young boys and since they didn't hire actual writers for the series it's not the biggest surprise that diversity in gender was missed). Frankly, I'm kind of sickened that, in this day and age, anything so grossly sexist was able to be produced and marketed to kids.

I can agree on the whole 'attractive design' thing, but sadly, most games do that anyway. And as for the 'damsel in distress' thing, sure, that bugged me, but I often think about what she was probably doing before she and Spyro met in the pirate ship in TEN. In other words, she may not have been AS helpless as what we saw. And I do believe she is getting 'stronger'. And I don't think this 'sexism' as you call it, was intentional. The writers probably didn't think OH WAIT-

What about The Lord of the Rings? There aren't that many female characters in The Fellowship of the Ring book, does that make Tolkien sexist?

Also, quick question: In my fanfictions, most of my characters are female. Does that make me sexist towards males? The number of characters of a certain gender is not sexist in the least. How you portray them is what matters.

And also, given all the Mary Sue accusations Cynder's been getting, I don't blame the writers for not having many females. Why? Because people will cry 'Mary Sue!' at a strong female that's a capable fighter. In fact, that's the sole reason some FEMALE authors make all their characters male. To avoid the insane 'Mary Sue' accusers.

And believe me, LOS is NOT in any way, shape, or form as sexist as other games. If anything, 'its sexism' is more like the old fairytales, than flat-out condemning a certain gender or making it an object. I have seen really nothing that makes Cynder an 'object', except from some of the fantards.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or force my opinions down anyone's throat. I'm just saying what I'm thinking.

Quote: IsisStormDragon

That isn't really sexism. I always thought sexism was DISCRIMINATING against someone because of gender. Cynder's just the only current female. Nothin' sexist about that.

Oh really?

Might not be sexist, but it sure says something nasty about SxC. Spyro and Cynder are the only young dragons, Cynder the only female AT ALL. Thus, unless some more young males AND females appear in the next game, I will be the first to say that SxC is A SICK relationship. This is so because if they really are the only young dragons, and therefore the only ones capable of breeding, it's like it's thier responsibility to repopulate the dragon race. UGH! I don't like Cynder or the new Spyro, but no one deserves that kind of pressure, especially at that age.

That, I can understand. But I don't think they'd do that. There probably will be more Dragons in the next game.

Quote: NEW_SpyroLUVA

Quote: IsisStormDragon

That isn't really sexism. I always thought sexism was DISCRIMINATING against someone because of gender. Cynder's just the only current female. Nothin' sexist about that.

Oh really?

Might not be sexist, but it sure says something nasty about SxC. Spyro and Cynder are the only young dragons, Cynder the only female AT ALL. Thus, unless some more young males AND females appear in the next game, I will be the first to say that SxC is A SICK relationship. This is so because if they really are the only young dragons, and therefore the only ones capable of breeding, it's like it's thier responsibility to repopulate the dragon race. UGH! I don't like Cynder or the new Spyro, but no one deserves that kind of pressure, especially at that age.

TLOS Spyro would not care.....He would LOVE IT.Bwahhah

On a serious note I do have to agree with you there, But who says that they would go through with that idea, I mean if they do have kids...Who will the kids Mate with? Good job Malefor you moron

Quote: IsisStormDragon

I can agree on the whole 'attractive design' thing, but sadly, most games do that anyway. And as for the 'damsel in distress' thing, sure, that bugged me, but I often think about what she was probably doing before she and Spyro met in the pirate ship in TEN. In other words, she may not have been AS helpless as what we saw. And I do believe she is getting 'stronger'. And I don't think this 'sexism' as you call it, was intentional. The writers probably didn't think OH WAIT-

What about The Lord of the Rings? There aren't that many female characters in The Fellowship of the Ring book, does that make Tolkien sexist?

Also, quick question: In my fanfictions, most of my characters are female. Does that make me sexist towards males? The number of characters of a certain gender is not sexist in the least. How you portray them is what matters.

And also, given all the Mary Sue accusations Cynder's been getting, I don't blame the writers for not having many females. Why? Because people will cry 'Mary Sue!' at a strong female that's a capable fighter. In fact, that's the sole reason some FEMALE authors make all their characters male. To avoid the insane 'Mary Sue' accusers.

And believe me, LOS is NOT in any way, shape, or form as sexist as other games. If anything, 'its sexism' is more like the old fairytales, than flat-out condemning a certain gender or making it an object. I have seen really nothing that makes Cynder an 'object', except from some of the fantards.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or force my opinions down anyone's throat. I'm just saying what I'm thinking.

It probably wasn’t intentional, that can be true. However, do to the inexperience of these writers and how they portray Cynder, or in this case Mary, is what makes me and apparently Razz see elements of sexism in TLOS. In truth though, I can concur that this is the result of poor writing, which in turn makes Mary a weak female character. As Razz stated, Mary is… wishy-washy. At times she is spunky; at times she’s this helpless little girl who needs Gary to help her. This can also note saying that women are never stable with their emotions and can be quite erratic.


As for the notion of not having a lot of female characters in a piece of media; the “Lord of the Flies” is a good example of that without it being sexist. At that time the author admitted that since he wasn’t a girl he didn’t add any girls in the book because he wanted to portray the best of his characters. Pretty much saying that, he had no experience writing female characters that would hold a strong or important role in his story. Note that I said important role , to this day I don’t know what role Mary had in TLOS besides being just bait for Gary and being… well there.


How an author portrays their characters is indeed correct. How the writers portrayed Mary in TLOS however, was not up to par to my and Razz’s standards. You seem to be more tolerant on that matter, am I saying you’re wrong, no… it’s possible, especially since I’m a guy, I could be missing a point here (makes sense considering that I’m defending a female on the matter on sexism which mind you a guy probably wouldn’t be able to make such an impressive stand ). However, male writers can write strong and impressive female characters within their stories and vice versa. Look at Avatar the Last Air Bender. The show portrays a lot of strong female characters, each with their own personality to boot.


Kitara, the strong mother character, despite her being the mother of the group she remains calm and focused despite what might happen along their journey. However even she had her faults as she would be too dutiful at times to really have fun and relax. And she allowed her past experiences with the Fire nation to get the better of her.


Toph the tom-boy character. She may have ran away from her parents but at that time she just wanted to be free from her over protective parents because they deemed her weak do to her blindness. The writers proved to the audience that despite this handicap Toph was a very tough and was more than capable of holding on her own. However did this not make her invincible, Toph being wild at times, her own personality would get the better of her and she would appear to be ill-tempered at times.


Azula, tenacious and manipulative. Azula in turn was somewhat of a puppet of her father, but despite this she showed signs of leadership, tactfulness, and tenacity that most female characters will only dream of having. Although misguided, one has to give her some respect for being so, resourceful.


What makes a Mary-Sue a Mary-Sue is her overall personality, how much the author adores that character and what role she serves. The name of that is a Sacred Cow in some terminology. TLOS Spyro is beyond that notion of being a Sacred Cow as nothing truly ‘bad’ happens to him that makes such in impact on the player, or at least not to me. IMO everything seems to go Gary’s way despite what may happen to him. Mind you that even Frodo received a fatality when he succumbed to the ring’s power (he lost part of his finger, not really big but a fatality none the less).


Mary is the same way. Despite her conceding to Malefor’s powers she somehow breaks free, when mind you everyone including the Chronicler said that there’s no hope for her. This is the Pity-Sue of the Mary –Sue circle, the main character or a character of interest pities the Mary-Sue and somehow wants to help her. Also note that a Mary-Sue can hold powers that no other character can within the story, which again is true since no other dragon or character has her abilities (and the fact that she somehow just gets them is another indication).

All in all IsisStormDragon, I don’t think you have the insanity or cruelty to start a flame war. This in itself is just a small argument. Despite what you might think, I still think that TLOS has elements of sexism in it. You might see differently, again that’s perfectly fine as you have your perspectives. But, I did mean what I mean when I said that this series has Closet Sexist Themes.

IsisStormDragon:
Everything you say about Cynder is entirely speculation. As plausible as it is, we never actually see Cynder fight in the games and, thus, it is just fanon. For all we know, she was captured after Spyro and that was her first appearance in the arena, or she never fought at all. The one time she does fight (as Dark Cynder) she's not a very competent boss. Her moves in DotD make up for some of this, but her personality generally contradicts her fighting style.

There's a huge difference between "very few females" and "no other females". Also keep in mind that the two women we get to know in Lord of the Rings are shown to be capable, are very strong, and play a major role in the story (I'm thinking of Galadriel, who gave up the ring when she understood that she would be even more powerful than Sauron if she had it, and Eowyn, who openly defied her family and culture and killed a demon no one else could bring down). Also, Tolkien started writing in the 1920s, a time when the role of women in society was very different. LoS was created in the 2000s, at a time when we should be past the kind of garbage we see in those games.

Again, there's a difference between "some female characters" and "only one female". There's also a difference between a strong female character and a stereotyped one. You aren't being sexist by having a lot of female characters simply because we have not, as a species or a society, reached a point of equality between the genders. Many things are still male dominated and there is still a lot of male privilege today. Women are still fighting for equality, whether you are conscious of that or not. We've come a long way, yes, but there is still a long way to go.

People aren't calling Cynder a Mary Sue because she's a strong female character. Read up on what a Mary Sue actually is and then we can have this conversation. The fact that Cynder is the only girl, is the obvious love interest, is liked by those who should logically be questioning her (namely, the Guardians), does not face any consequences for her actions, and eventually gets everything she wants are just some of the real reasons why she's a Mary Sue. She's somebody's wish fulfillment character, which isn't always a bad thing, but which is a defining characteristic of a Mary Sue. If I remember my Sue subspecies right, she's either a Scary Sue or an Emo Sue.

Oh, there are a lot more sexist things out there than LoS, no doubt. But for a kids' game, it's pretty one-sided on gender roles. As for it being like an old fairy tale...you should read some of those. The versions your parents told you or that you see in Disney movies are nothing like the real things (though I should warn you, original fairy tales can be gruesome and horrible at times; they weren't meant for children when they were first told).

No worries. I hope I'm not coming down too hard on you guys. I've just been in this fandom too long and I'm used to slamming my head against the proverbial wall when talking to anyone who is a LoS fan (especially Cynder fans). D:

I understand what you both are saying. Maybe I'm just too laid back when it comes to certain things, because as Zackeio said, I guess I am more tolerate on the matter. However, nobody make the mistake that I tolerate sexism; I absolutely despise it, but I just don't really see it in LOS as much. Basically, it seems so tiny that I can shrug it off with little trouble. But that's my opinion.

And yes, I know what a Mary Sue is, but some people really don't. I've seen a few times someone accusing an author of having a Mary Sue, when in fact the 'Mary Sue' is just a strong female. As for Cynder, well, maybe she is a bit Mary Sueish, but I've seen worse on FanFiction. I find Cynder bearable and somewhat likable compared to those characters.

Also, did you know that apparently some people are claiming the term Mary Sue is sexist? The reason is people aren't always called on Gary Stues, but Mary Sue cries are everywhere. If this is true ( I can't be sure of its validity, considering I read it on Wikipedia), that to me, is unnerving.

And as for the fairytale thing, I am aware they edited them when they made the movies and what-not, but I don't recall Disney being slammed for sexism in movies like Sleeping Beauty, but meh. Think what you want.

Ugh, Mary Sue...I detest that arguement

I don't like it either.

Quote: Aura24

Yeah, and they would whine to Insomniac to make the games again. But it's been confirmed that there is no chance of them going back to Spyro. And even if Activision made an old Spyro game, it wouldn't have the same originality as the first three games had.

I honestly don't care whether they bring the originals back or not, I just want the button mashing and gloomy atmosphere gone.

Oh hell, much as I love the oldies, I agree with you Cookie.

Yep. I don't want the old games to be remade, I just wanted LoS to be fun to play (which it wasn't).

^Agreed

I LOVE SPYRO!!

Then why is your username Cynder13 instead of Spyro13? ;)

Plus... that is good to hear, but I don't know if it belongs in this topic.

Why does all this conversation make me want to write a nice Spyro fanfiction? o3o

Quote: Wild

Why does all this conversation make me want to write a nice Spyro fanfiction? o3o

It kinda does the same for me.