darkSpyro

Quote: Earth-Dragon

One thing that might be getting people excited to bump up so quickly is the fact that many toons have been balanced out and in general everyone is stronger. Some took a hit though, but its mostly the lock down blanket damage types. Keep in mind that you aren't just moving toons up because you think they are better, they have to also be better then the competition.

Ignitor's swings arent as clunky, but that doesn't mean Blademaster should automatically be moved to Lower A. Is he able to compete with the Lower A Skylanders. If he cannot, he should not moved.

I would insist all recommendations be tested on the field and not just theoretical ideas causing the adjustments.

Most of them are tested in the field. However, theoretical recommendations can help too, even if they don't make as much of an impact as tested ones do.

Why does everyone want to knock down Fright Rider. He is definitely upper A. He is fast and does punishing damage. Just charge in, do a combo or a few reg attacks, retreat, rinse and repeat. Sure he has low health, but I have found it isn't condemning like trigs. I have tested him against a capable opponent using cynder and Prism Break, and didn't break a sweat. He is Upper A at the least.

Quote: Aquatic Llama

Why does everyone want to knock down Fright Rider. He is definitely upper A. He is fast and does punishing damage. Just charge in, do a combo or a few reg attacks, retreat, rinse and repeat. Sure he has low health, but I have found it isn't condemning like trigs. I have tested him against a capable opponent using cynder and Prism Break, and didn't break a sweat. He is Upper A at the least.

Which path are you talking about?

Quote: Bean Sprout

Quote: Aquatic Llama

Why does everyone want to knock down Fright Rider. He is definitely upper A. He is fast and does punishing damage. Just charge in, do a combo or a few reg attacks, retreat, rinse and repeat. Sure he has low health, but I have found it isn't condemning like trigs. I have tested him against a capable opponent using cynder and Prism Break, and didn't break a sweat. He is Upper A at the least.

Which path are you talking about?

My bad. Lance a lot.

Quote: Aquatic Llama

Quote: Bean Sprout

Quote: Aquatic Llama

Why does everyone want to knock down Fright Rider. He is definitely upper A. He is fast and does punishing damage. Just charge in, do a combo or a few reg attacks, retreat, rinse and repeat. Sure he has low health, but I have found it isn't condemning like trigs. I have tested him against a capable opponent using cynder and Prism Break, and didn't break a sweat. He is Upper A at the least.

Which path are you talking about?

My bad. Lance a lot.

Well, compare him to the other characters of Upper A. The close range fighters all do more damage than him anyway, and his low HP just makes it easier for them to beat him. His dash isn't really fast enough on Lance A Lot, so he doesn't have much to do to help his low HP on that path. Then, look at the other characters. Cynder could drain his health with the ghosts pretty easily, and the slowing would make him nearly completely unable to escape. He may be able to toss Hex around a bit, but even setting up ONE Skull Servant would be nearly game-ending for Fright Rider. Drobot can fly as fast as Fright Rider can dash, so he can just fly around and chip his health with the lasers.

None of the stages really allow for true hit and run. He will get up close and he will Rock them. He easily destroyed Cynder and Prism Break. Drobot was a close match but he prevailed. No one is going to beat Hex. At least, almost always. His other path may be better but Lancelot is still a great path.

Not fast enough? He is plenty fast. Especially since most stages are fairly small and crowded.

Unless Cynder got some nerfs that I am unaware of, she should beat him by draining his health with the ghosts.
And I really don't see how getting up close would be the best strategy for him. Could you explain? It seems to me that he would get demolished because the other Skylander's higher HP would allow them to stay much longer than he could. Besides, his attacks aren't THAT powerful.

And I meant that Jouster Jockey has a charge that is quite a bit faster than LaL's, and that most other dash attacks found in Upper A would be as fast as/faster than LaL's charge.

Quote: Bean Sprout

@Earth Dragon: I wasn't saying you were wrong, I was saying that sometimes random result numbers don't really help. But I now see that your post was more than just random result numbers, so I apologize for my responses to them.

@LightSpyro13: For Terrafin, the mini-sharks were always pretty useless and were never really a staple part of the Sandhog path, so I do not feel that that specific reason should affect his placement. For Zap, I have found that the slime electricity damage ticks a good deal quicker than in SA.

@Egonaut: I am not at the house where Giants is, but I have been wanting to do some tests on WB for a while now.
Also, after a little thought, I think Frighty's Lance A Lot path should be moved down to Lower A. His HP is just too low for him to be a meleeist with good potential. Melee fighters make up a lot of Upper A, and those fighters (specifically Terrafin, Wham Shell, Slam Bam, and Bash) should be able to take him out before he can make much impact, due to the HP. Although he has his charge to get away, it isn't as fast as most charge attacks on Lance A Lot, so the likes of Bash and Slam Bam can easily catch him.

For me, the Mini Sharks were better than alot of people say they are. I don't use them for major damage, but I use them to annoy and soften my opponent; because they continously damage him/her for like 10 seconds and they prevent your opponent from attacking you (or really just interrupt, but still helpful). But I clearly said it was only an additional reason, not as important as my other ones. My main reasons (as I've told you before) for Sandhog lower are the difficulty to control while burrowed and being a one-trick pony on that path; relies too much on swimming, his punches are kind of useless and his bellyflop leaves him open to attack even though it does tons of damage.

As for Zap, like I said, doesn't stay electrified forever. Besides, the only upgrade I found helpful on Slime Sea Serpent (even though it doesn't damage alot) was the More Electro'd Slime; the other 2 upgrades weren't that beneficial. That path was alot of fun, but my Zap got his butt schooled so hard plenty of times. Telsa Dragon's pretty much the only way to deal some damage with

Quote: LightSpyro13

Quote: Bean Sprout

@Earth Dragon: I wasn't saying you were wrong, I was saying that sometimes random result numbers don't really help. But I now see that your post was more than just random result numbers, so I apologize for my responses to them.

@LightSpyro13: For Terrafin, the mini-sharks were always pretty useless and were never really a staple part of the Sandhog path, so I do not feel that that specific reason should affect his placement. For Zap, I have found that the slime electricity damage ticks a good deal quicker than in SA.

@Egonaut: I am not at the house where Giants is, but I have been wanting to do some tests on WB for a while now.
Also, after a little thought, I think Frighty's Lance A Lot path should be moved down to Lower A. His HP is just too low for him to be a meleeist with good potential. Melee fighters make up a lot of Upper A, and those fighters (specifically Terrafin, Wham Shell, Slam Bam, and Bash) should be able to take him out before he can make much impact, due to the HP. Although he has his charge to get away, it isn't as fast as most charge attacks on Lance A Lot, so the likes of Bash and Slam Bam can easily catch him.

For me, the Mini Sharks were better than alot of people say they are. I don't use them for major damage, but I use them to annoy and soften my opponent; because they continously damage him/her for like 10 seconds and they prevent your opponent from attacking you (or really just interrupt, but still helpful). But I clearly said it was only an additional reason, not as important as my other ones. My main reasons (as I've told you before) for Sandhog lower are the difficulty to control while burrowed and being a one-trick pony on that path; relies too much on swimming, his punches are kind of useless and his bellyflop leaves him open to attack even though it does tons of damage.

As for Zap, like I said, doesn't stay electrified forever. Besides, the only upgrade I found helpful on Slime Sea Serpent (even though it doesn't damage alot) was the More Electro'd Slime; the other 2 upgrades weren't that beneficial. That path was alot of fun, but my Zap got his butt schooled so hard plenty of times. Telsa Dragon's pretty much the only way to deal some damage with

Doesn't the razorfin outspeed the mini-sharks anyway? And that little bit of open to damage time when you use the bellyflop is overshadowed by the fact that he is invincible all the other times he uses the dig. Besides, S2 Terrafin can immediately go back into the ground after a flop. And I haven't had much trouble with the fin, and I don't think anyone else has, either.

Well, it ticks damage quite quickly now, making the damage input of the slimes much better. And can't you just re-electrify the slimes with a lightning zap? I agree, it is a hindrance, but it seems too minor to do anything about it.

V I'm well aware of the fact that he's invincible underground and can still harm the opponent, I haven't forgotten. BUT it is not enough to be Broken because he gets hard to control (which means he's difficult to use around obstacles, walls, inclines, & platforms) and he can't do much without swimming, he's too much of a one-trick pony on Sandhog (his other moves & Razorfin do weak damage, so there isn't much to depend on there). I told you several times already. And the Wow Pow is helpful, but still not very useful around platforms (kind of a weak idea for a Wow Pow though, would've preferred something much better than that).

Yes you can re-electrifiy it. However, the slime disappears a few seconds after the electric juice runs out, so it's not a very helpful trick. Sea Slime Serpent isn't very good for PvP compared to Telsa Dragon.

You will all bow down to the might of the TRUE queen of Battle Mode, Legendary Stealth Elf: Maximum Overdrive Edition:
Maximum Overdrive Edition is a Skylander who has achieved the following feats:
All 45 heroics completed
Gold Rank
Level 15
All Upgrades in BOTH paths
Knight Helm/gold top hat Equipped (whichever is stronger)
Ownership held by a save file that also has Tree Rex (be it Gnarled or standard), Shroomboom (be it LightCore or standard), Zook (Be it Series 1 or 2), Stump Smash (be it series 1 or 2), and Camo registered on it.
Path is currently set to Pook Blade Saint (in this specific case, however, switch out the phrase Pook Blade Saint with the more powerful of the two paths of a skylander as needed)

She is the Ultimate Fighting Machine! None shall stand in her path and LIVE!
In a perfect world (perfect for me, that is), I would own a Legendary Stealth Elf with these specs, alas, this is NOT a perfect world. In fact, its SO imperfect, that I don't even own A Legendary Stealth Elf, let alone a Legendary Stealth Elf with those specs, no wait, SO imperfect, that Legendary Stealth Elf isn't EVEN out yet. SO imperfect, that retailers the United States (where I live) might not even GET it until an undetermined amount of time after Canada gets it on November 2, forcing me to buy from a Canadian scalper if it doesn't if I want to get it ASAP. SO imperfect, that not only do I not have Camo, the S1 Life Skylander that WASN'T reprinted, meaning in order to get these specs I need to buy one off a scalper, but the ONLY Life Skylander I currently have is a regular S1 Stealth Elf, meaning no Elemental Power bonus for me right off the bat! /endrage

Oh... my... god.. SHUT UP

Quote: juarmo

You will all bow down to the might of the TRUE queen of Battle Mode, Legendary Stealth Elf: Maximum Overdrive Edition:
Maximum Overdrive Edition is a Skylander who has achieved the following feats:
All 45 heroics completed
Gold Rank
Level 15
All Upgrades in BOTH paths
Knight Helm/gold top hat Equipped (whichever is stronger)
Ownership held by a save file that also has Tree Rex (be it Gnarled or standard), Shroomboom (be it LightCore or standard), Zook (Be it Series 1 or 2), Stump Smash (be it series 1 or 2), and Camo registered on it.
Path is currently set to Pook Blade Saint (in this specific case, however, switch out the phrase Pook Blade Saint with the more powerful of the two paths of a skylander as needed)

She is the Ultimate Fighting Machine! None shall stand in her path and LIVE!
In a perfect world (perfect for me, that is), I would own a Legendary Stealth Elf with these specs, alas, this is NOT a perfect world. In fact, its SO imperfect, that I don't even own A Legendary Stealth Elf, let alone a Legendary Stealth Elf with those specs, no wait, SO imperfect, that Legendary Stealth Elf isn't EVEN out yet. SO imperfect, that retailers the United States (where I live) might not even GET it until an undetermined amount of time after Canada gets it on November 2, forcing me to buy from a Canadian scalper if it doesn't if I want to get it ASAP. SO imperfect, that not only do I not have Camo, the S1 Life Skylander that WASN'T reprinted, meaning in order to get these specs I need to buy one off a scalper, but the ONLY Life Skylander I currently have is a regular S1 Stealth Elf, meaning no Elemental Power bonus for me right off the bat! /endrage

Are you crazy? L-Stealth Elf is totally not that strong, just the same as Regular S2 Stealth Elf with slightly superior stats! Regular Stealth Elf isn't even that good; her Soul Gem sucks, she is very short-ranged, the decoys are completely useless (unles your opponent's gullible), she has low armor, and her combos are kind of lame. And I think Camo is one of the worst Skylanders of all time, he's SOO overrated. It'd be a REAL perfedct World without him, I'm glad he has no repose. Stump Smash & Zook are the best Life Skylanders hands down (mostly Stump Smash).

I'm starting to get confused as to what do in regards to having a new G-Tier.
It does look like it'd be useful at the moment to have a tier for dumping all the decent Giants+Ignitor and Hex, however; I'm actually starting to really aggree with Earth-Dragon here in regards to how the tiers are being used right now, and the results that's having like the currrent Upper A tier being bloated.
I also agree that this whole "upper/lower" tiers business looks a bit silly. I originally liked the idea because the gist was that the Upper and Lower A tiers were actually the same tier that had been arranged in to upper and lower groups just to add clarity. Looking at it again, I think the tiers might be well-defined enough now that we may as well have a clearer "S-A-B-C-D-E" system. I hope people won't mind if I go and rename the tiers?

I think it's very important that wherever we can, we should evaluate that every character, old or new, fits in to their respective tiers by comparing well with the other characters in those tiers, instead of just moving characters up/down based on theoretical ideas.
It is important to remember that a character's tier is not a graded rating of simply how good that character is, but a grouping based on how that character performs against other characters in the tiers above and below.

• Tiers have been renamed to follow a more straightforward "S-A-B-C-D-E" system. No "G" tier has been added yet, but I will add one later if enough people think it necessary.
  
• Fright Rider / Lance A Lot moved to Lower A Tier (which is now named B Tier.)
  
• Drill Sergeant Sr2 / Megadozer moved to S Tier. Should I do anything with Battledozer?
  

EDIT: Thinking about it more myself, having a G Tier might actually help the issue of certain other tiers being bloated, because it would thin out the other tiers enough to establish that clear divide between the characters that can compete with the best of the giants, and the characters that don't. I am now in support of having a G Tier for the moment. Does anyone else support or object to the idea?

Battledozer aims pretty lazily with his Auto Blaster, so the Wow Pow is a little wasted on him. I'd leave him where he is.

S2 Ignitor can definitely defeat Giants. Everything that was good about him before is somehow even better now. They never addressed the issue of three mortars hitting at once, his flame soul "ticks" faster and actually has physical force now, and his Wow Pow (the blue fire) ticks like crazy itself, and provides a nice layer of defense for approaching enemies. One of the few characters who I could see being comfortable across the arena from a Giant; since he does over twice their damage, it doesn't matter if he has half their HP.

Quote: Nibelilt

^ I don't really think that will happen until further testing is done, but I think it's worthwhile leaving it until then as well.

Anyone tested out Trigger Happy's MegaBlast! yet? If it does a ton of damage, perhaps Golden Frenzy will reach the ranks of Lower A with Moneybags?

Wait, I'm confused. Wouldn't the Machine gun Megablast help Moneybags instead of GF, since you cannot use the Machine gun while the bullets are bouncing? Or has that been fixed now?

Revelation today: G Tier has to exist, but I propose it exist on the side of S Tier and not above. Here is my reason why:

Some characters are just plain Giant killers, and don't have the same strength against the rest of the roster. Case in point, S2 Flameslinger, either path, simply annihilates every Giant. They can't even get close to him with his Wow Pow, and no matter how long it takes, they are easy wins for him because of this. On the other hand, I don't think anyone playing S2 Flameslinger is clamoring for him to get into the normal S Tier, because he doesn't belong there; he is far weaker to regular characters than Giants.

So, my proposal is this. G Tier is for Giants and characters who can actually beat Giants, yes, but sort of a sidegrade to S Tier and not necessarily above. Different strengths are required to fight effectively in each tier. While some, like S2 Hex and Ignitor, clearly belong in both tiers, Flameslinger is an anomaly because he is an A-tier character at highest who happens to destroy Giants because he is too fast for them to touch. There will be other Giant specialists as time goes on, I'm sure. To the point where we need to prepare the tier list for that concept existing.

So tash....shouldn't "G" be a designator and not a tier if they are just different. Put a G by all shrimps in anything below A that still hold up against the Giants.

That would actually be a way more efficient way of organizing it. Let's go with that please. Nice idea, Earth-Dragon.

It sounds like a good idea, whatever it is, but I still don't quite understand what you two mean. Explain it to me one more time?

If a character is specifically good against Giants, we can just notate it by putting a G next to their name on the tier list. That way people know that, even if S2 Flameslinger is an A-tier character, he still has Giant expertise as a reason to use him.

Quote: Tashiji

If a character is specifically good against Giants, we can just notate it by putting a G next to their name on the tier list. That way people know that, even if S2 Flameslinger is an A-tier character, he still has Giant expertise as a reason to use him.

Ah, brilliant! And as for the Giants themselves, do we just arrange them in to the S and A tiers?

• Ignitor / Soul of the Flame (both series) marked (G) for Giant Killer.
  
• Hex Sr2 / Bone Crafter marked (G) for Giant Killer. (Does Shade Master have giant-killing capability as well?)
  
• Flameslinger Sr2 / (both paths) moved to A Tier and marked (G) for Giant Killer.
  

Megadozer Drill Sergeant (S2) works for the same reason as Flameslinger. Too fast, and does highly damaging keep-away with his new Wow Pow. Giants can't corner him, and he pretty much just has to let the Auto Blaster do the work for him while he charges repeatedly out of their range. Occasional drill rockets when you have the space, and Giants will inevitably fall.

So far, the only solid counters I've seen are keep-away kings and the odd ones who can do over twice the damage of a Giant and actually win a firefight with their HP.

EDIT: Oh, and Stump Smash is almost certainly going to wind up the best Life when the dust settles. Huge HP, his Wow Pow is ridiculous (10 rapid-fire, wide-area, 30-damage nuts), and honestly, defense beats offense this time. They really made approaches like melee Stealth Elf markedly less effective.

There are too many matches to run, but because of the coverage and damage of the hammer, the sheer hit points, and the ability to stun, Both crusher paths should go to S tier for now.

Double Trouble/channeler is definitely the best character for killing giants as they are big targets for his beam. He needs to be in G tier.

• Drill Sergeant Sr2 / Megadozer marked (G) for Giant Killer.
  
• Crusher / (both paths) placed in S Tier.
  

Can anyone else varify Double Trouble / Channeler being a Giant Killer?

EDIT: I'm generally anticipating that the S Tier is going to get quite big very soon. Perhaps we should re-evaluate some of the old S-Tier characters left over from SA that we haven't touched on yet, and whether they still deserve their status as a "broken" character?

Oh and as an addition to the beam targetting thing the giants are very slow making it easy for Double Trouble to back away while his rape beam slowly but surely obliterates them.

Quote: Mrmorrises

Oh and as an addition to the beam targetting thing the giants are very slow making it easy for Double Trouble to back away while his rape beam slowly but surely obliterates them.

Sounds good so far, but I need a little more evaluation: What Giants have you tested that against, and how many times has it worked? Is his Wow Pow power factoring in to this, or can Series 1 DT do it as well?

Alright to be fair I have only tested it against Tree rex. But I kicked his Burt all the time. My brother played as Tree rex and he has an insanely annoying spam/camp strategy but in the end Double Trouble destroyed him(series 1 Double Trouble)

It would depend on the Giant with DT. I don't imagine it going too well against Crusher, who can hammer smash from right outside Magic Bomb range, but I can definitely see where the win against Tree Rex might have come from. I'd say this one is more of a one-on-one advantage to Tree Rex and not a Giant killer skill-set, but would definitely like to see more testing.

And yes, EgoNaut, everything needs re-evaluating, I agree wholeheartedly. Cynder, Stealth Elf, Drobot and the like aren't what they once were. Ignitor may have gotten stronger, but it's frankly debatable at this point if the rest of the previous S-tier are even the best in their respective elements anymore, let alone the game.

I think Double trouble needs to be g tier hes like the best character in pvp followed by Stealth elf(excluding giants)

Is it just me, or is Jet Vac terrible? Has anyone tried a PVP strategy that actually works with this guy? Both builds seem bad, and I can't figure out if there's anything worthwhile that I'm just not seeing, or if Wind is still the worst element and their newest entry is exceptionally awful.

Jet vac is amazing on bird blaster. And I don't think wind is the worst element Id have to say water or fire would be the worst.

I was actually thinking Fire had just gotten a whole lot better. Most of the game-engine changes really benefit Sunburn, Flameslinger is now pulling his weight and has improved a lot more than the community has noticed due to lack of figures in stores, and Ignitor is still beastly. I hear good things about Hot Head, too. Eruptor is still... Eruptor, but the rest of the element has really filled out.

Agreed on Water to some degree, although Gill Grunt and Slam Bam are both a lot better this time.

I posted this in the Wow Pow thread but thought it may be useful here for reference. This isn't PvP damage but for DPS comparison it works and likely very applicable to PvP Giant Killing as well as relative power/eventual tier ranking:

*** Tiny, if any, Spoiler***

To truly understand just how much Damage Hex can produce, I took two of my most upgraded, overpowered non-Hex Skylanders to a certain singing boss at the end of Chapter 11; Observing/Recording how long it takes to pass each of the three stages of the battle. I used a level 14, 41 Heroic Challenges Stealth Elf S1 the first time; a Level 13, 28 Heroic Challenges Ignitor S1 on a second run through; and a Level 12, 6 Heroic Challenges Hex S2 on the Third.


My Stealth Elf's nerf'd damage needed about 26 seconds on the first stage to complete and a little less on each of the other two stages.
Ignitor, much like in the ending Kaos fight in S:SA, excelled at this fight and took about 12 seconds on stage one and, again, a little less on the other two stages.

Hex completed each stage somewhere between 2 and 3 seconds for a grand total of less than 10 seconds of battling for all three stages combined ... it was that moment when my jaw dropped, and I had to redefine "Overpowered" in my head. I think Tashiji had a similar moment when he saw 11 Pow Wow mask shots in a row

We've got some work ahead of us...

One way or another, we need to re-assess all of the characters that were comfortably in certain tiers in Spyro's Adventure, but may need to be moved up or down after 'Giants: To do this, I think the best way would be to start at the top tiers and work our way down, so let's start with the S Tier...

The currently suspect characters in the S Tier that we haven't touched on much are as follows:

Stealth Elf / Pook Blade Saint
Zook / Floral Defender
Terrafin / (both paths)
Dino-Rang / Grand Boomerang Master
Cynder / Nether Wielder (and probably Shadow Dancer as well)

What I need people to do is to battle these characters against the other characters in the current S Tier, using as many of the characters as possible, and as much as possible. Try to find out which of these characters still hold their place in the current S Tier, and which need to be moved down.

Oh, and also, would anyone have objections to me dumping Jet-Vac / Packeteer in E Tier?

I would say Vac packeteer can go in D tier. I also would like to see Typhoon titan move up but people critcize me for saying that even when Typhoon titan beats many characters :/.

Nibelilt, run some matches against the current C characters and Let us now what you find. Looking at the list, that might be right.

Channeler Double trouble beat Bouncer crusher and swarm. I think he is definitely the most worthy character of the G tier. Nether welder cynder could beat Tree rex and Bouncer but not crusher or swarm.

Said it before, I'll say it again: Sandhog, Pook Blade Saint, & Nether Welder need to be kicked out of S tier. If I had a video capture card (I'm planning to get one as soon as I have enough cash), I'd upload videos of fights with my little cousin (she isn't as good as me though).

Guys, hex's supermegagalaxy opness didn't occur to me until AFTER i posted that, and even then, the elemental advantage didn't occur to me, and even so, it was clearly an overly exaggerated part with a humorously overzealous tone, and even so, if L-Stealth Elf was in Spyro's Adventure, being a Stealth Elf with only SLIGHTLY boosted stats would be making the most broken thing in the game even more broken, even if just by a little, however, I do not actually have giants yet, but here's a thought: if the skull servant's blasts are AI controlled, then maybe L-Stealth Elf can draw its fire away from itself with scarecrows. Not sure that this would be reasonably possible, as though I do own a Medea Griffin Sonicboom and a Stealth Elf in Spyro's Adventure, I've never VS'd them with mah bro, so I don't know if Scarecrows draw AI-controlled Summon Attacks, if so, then maybe Forest Ninja would actually put up a fight against Hex's Skull Servant
which reminds me, what was Activision THINKING making a Skull Servant excessively powerful on its own http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Skull_Servant isn't supposed to be a big threat unless its in large numbers, and is in fact supposed to be practically NO threat when facing only 1. Does Hex summon 30+ Skull Servants? No. Does she summon 10+? No. Does she summon more than 1? Not even.

Im close to suggesting a move up for Tempest Dragon whirlwind. I just find her to be such a beast on it. But ultimate rainbower=absolute crap.I saw a video for ultimate rainbower and the idiot who made it said if you like tempest better than rainbower then you should go die in a tar pit.

Sandhog is easily S tier. All you do is cut your opponent with your fins, bellyflop, and rinse and repeat. It's not even fair. He has enough speed and his attacks do enough damage. Why is this even being debated. He can be invincible underground! Seriously!

Jet Vac is kinda underrated. He's average. I would say C tier. He's not D or E. All you needed to do is shoot and use your Jet Pack to avoid attacks. He's not a great character but he's not bad. He's not flashy, but he gets the job done.