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Toxic masculinity
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#1 Posted: 00:56:41 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
It's a concept that gets tossed around a lot and seems to have no concrete meaning. In this topic, we're going to attempt to give it one.

Personally, I think "toxic masculinity" is not a dig at traditional masculine traits, but it usually manifests as 3 particular beliefs or habits:

1. Suppression of negative or passive emotions in men (especially sadness and fear)
2. Glorifying physical violence in real life (which means being a fan of boxing and action movies doesn't count)
3. Strict adherence to traditional gender roles & attacking any deviation from them (especially in the professional realm)

What does everyone else think?
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 00:58:02 25/04/2018 by Metallo
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#2 Posted: 01:06:03 25/04/2018
I don't really think such a thing exists. Nor do I think there is such a thing as toxic femininity.

Just toxicity.
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"My memories will be part of the sky."
C1nder Prismatic Sparx Gems: 10045
#3 Posted: 01:37:46 25/04/2018
I think ur definition is p much perfect
DeathOfADream Yellow Sparx Gems: 1510
#4 Posted: 01:59:14 25/04/2018
That’s what it should be described as. But it seems a lot of people who use terms like “toxic masculinity” these days refer solely to male traits as a whole.
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”I am not everything you thought that I would be
But every story I have told is part of me.”
parisruelz12 Diamond Sparx Gems: 7569
#5 Posted: 02:12:54 25/04/2018
idk i dont really believe in toxic masculinity.

mainly because I feel that both genders can do all 3 of those things, but that's just me.
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looks like ive got some things to do...
Muffin Man Platinum Sparx Gems: 5337
#6 Posted: 03:23:52 25/04/2018
I think it refers to platypuses, since male platypuses are one of the only mammals known to produce poison.
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Boop me if you see this.
kardonis Platinum Sparx Gems: 6366
#7 Posted: 03:29:31 25/04/2018
Quote: Muffin Man
I think it refers to platypuses, since male platypuses are one of the only mammals known to produce poison.



And the answer is found. Thank you Muffin Man.
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I used to be THE Bowser, now I'm just an awkward girl
ClassicSpyroLUV Yellow Sparx Gems: 1193
#8 Posted: 03:40:16 25/04/2018
All of what you said applies to toxic women too.
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#9 Posted: 03:57:15 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: parisruelz12
mainly because I feel that both genders can do all 3 of those things, but that's just me.



Quote: ClassicSpyroLUV
All of what you said applies to toxic women too.



Well yes but that's not the point here
parisruelz12 Diamond Sparx Gems: 7569
#10 Posted: 05:49:50 25/04/2018
if you want to attempt to give it concrete meaning, perhaps you should say "Toxicity is not limited to gender, however it can be defined as follows
-Suppression of negative and passive emotions
-the glorification of violence in ways that aren't recreational, or being violent against certain groups of people (race, sex, gender) "

I'm not too sure about strict adherence to gender roles, mainly because tumblr creates toxicity by trying to do the exact oppisite. Instead I think it should be:

"Being too traditional, and being too opposed too tradition"

if that makes sense.
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looks like ive got some things to do...
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 06:12:38 25/04/2018 by parisruelz12
C1nder Prismatic Sparx Gems: 10045
#11 Posted: 06:13:37 25/04/2018
I'm not sure toxicity in women is exactly the same as toxic masculinity, however. Female toxicity is commonly rooted in misogyny. I feel that toxicity in men and women are enforced differently and have different effects.
parisruelz12 Diamond Sparx Gems: 7569
#12 Posted: 06:38:58 25/04/2018
Quote: C1nder
I'm not sure toxicity in women is exactly the same as toxic masculinity, however. Female toxicity is commonly rooted in misogyny. I feel that toxicity in men and women are enforced differently and have different effects.



Not too sure about that. A woman can tell her son to act like a man, and to grow up. Which leads to suppression of emotion. A woman can be violent against certain groups (citing the many posts on tumblr who call for a "genocide of white males". lastly, some women i've seen call to end traditional gender roles as a whole. rather, i feel like they could be more open minded about it being traditional and non traditional.

just my two cents though :V
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looks like ive got some things to do...
C1nder Prismatic Sparx Gems: 10045
#13 Posted: 06:49:55 25/04/2018
Quote: parisruelz12
Quote: C1nder
I'm not sure toxicity in women is exactly the same as toxic masculinity, however. Female toxicity is commonly rooted in misogyny. I feel that toxicity in men and women are enforced differently and have different effects.



Not too sure about that. A woman can tell her son to act like a man, and to grow up. Which leads to suppression of emotion. A woman can be violent against certain groups (citing the many posts on tumblr who call for a "genocide of white males". lastly, some women i've seen call to end traditional gender roles as a whole. rather, i feel like they could be more open minded about it being traditional and non traditional.

just my two cents though :V



Oh, I was meaning more how toxicity is used negatively against a gender. I misunderstood and assumed you were implying that women and men face the same kind of toxicity. I agree that women can enforce toxic masculinity as well as men themselves.
parisruelz12 Diamond Sparx Gems: 7569
#14 Posted: 07:23:12 25/04/2018
Quote: C1nder
Quote: parisruelz12
Quote: C1nder
I'm not sure toxicity in women is exactly the same as toxic masculinity, however. Female toxicity is commonly rooted in misogyny. I feel that toxicity in men and women are enforced differently and have different effects.



Not too sure about that. A woman can tell her son to act like a man, and to grow up. Which leads to suppression of emotion. A woman can be violent against certain groups (citing the many posts on tumblr who call for a "genocide of white males". lastly, some women i've seen call to end traditional gender roles as a whole. rather, i feel like they could be more open minded about it being traditional and non traditional.

just my two cents though :V



Oh, I was meaning more how toxicity is used negatively against a gender. I misunderstood and assumed you were implying that women and men face the same kind of toxicity. I agree that women can enforce toxic masculinity as well as men themselves.


Ohhh gotcha *thumbs up emojii here*
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looks like ive got some things to do...
DirtPrincess Green Sparx Gems: 276
#15 Posted: 16:59:47 25/04/2018
Toxic masculinity is just another way most people say "I don't like men"

Or, like Muffin Man said, a way to shame innocent male platypodes for behavior they can't control. Disgusting.
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Change my mind - Taylor Swift
TheFlyingSeal Diamond Sparx Gems: 8512
#16 Posted: 17:28:41 25/04/2018
Quote: DirtPrincess
Toxic masculinity is just another way most people say "I don't like men"

Or, like Muffin Man said, a way to shame innocent male platypodes for behavior they can't control. Disgusting.



I really disagree with this, because the whole concept of toxic masculinity isn't another way to say "gosh aren't men just the grossest beings on this planet!!!" Rather, it actually protects men, because toxic masculinity isn't saying "men are toxic," it's saying "enforced gender roles are toxic."

I remember one of my friends was going through extreme emotional stress. It was literally deteriorating him: he looked a lot thinner, he was angrier, and he just wasn't himself. I finally managed to talk to him alone and he began to vent to me about all the crappy things that was making him like that. As he was doing this, I was rubbing his back to comfort him, and I suddenly said "Hey, it's okay to cry."

He pauses his venting, like he was unsure. He's a logical guy, he doesn't really think about his emotions too much, so I said "Crying is the body's natural response to extreme emotions. Just cry. You'll feel a lot better."

He didn't argue with me or anything, but he was really stubborn about it. He just wouldn't do it, so I just continued to let him vent and gently reminded him that it was okay to cry every once in a while. Eventually he did, and it wasn't just simple crying, he was sobbing. It felt like he hasn't cried since he was a little kid. It was like all the pain he had cooped up over the years had suddenly flooded out of him. Then just like that, his mood instantly recovered.

Later, he thanked me for encouraging him to let his feelings out. He told me that he was always really insecure about his own masculinity, that he was always trying to prove himself to his dad because his dad was this HUGE enforcer of "be a man, men are strong willed and don't let the world effect them." Am I saying his dad is the bad guy here? No, of course not. What I blame is the cycle.
Men and their fathers, and their fathers fathers, undergo this cycle of proving to the world that they are manly.

Humans are creatures that are social and want to be accepted, so when society has this long built up role of Men™ and Women™, they work their whole lives to fill it. Toxic masculinity is the toxic enforcement of the rule, saying things such as "Men don't cry" when a little boy is crying over a scrapped knee. Some men really are just that naturally manly, though. I knew a dude who I could punch in the stomach, and he didn't even bat an eye despite being ten (10) years old.... but some men just can't. Some men like "feminine" associated things like fashion and artsy things. Some men have "feminine" associated traits like sensitivity and. You say that toxic masculinity shames men acting for the way they are, but that's the total opposite.

Fighting against toxic masculinity actually helps men become who they really are, and learn how to be manly in their own way. That's why I agree with sonicbrawler when he says that it's just toxicity. People read toxic masculinity, and immediately think SJW's hating men again. It's not, it's reallyreally not.

tl;dr Men can be the textbook definition of manly, but not every man can. Toxic masculinity is the process of negatively enforcing a man to fit that definition. It was never about hating men.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk
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#CynderIsAFireDragon
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 17:29:21 25/04/2018 by TheFlyingSeal
DirtPrincess Green Sparx Gems: 276
#17 Posted: 17:39:55 25/04/2018
The way toxic masculinity is most commonly used is definitely just for the sole purpose of shaming men. It's saying "this behavior is bad and let's make fun of them for it". I fully support men and women being able to express themselves however they want and I don't think it needs to be labeled as masculinity or femininity anyway. But the entire concept of toxic masculinity isn't a supportive, positive thing. It's a shaming thing.

9/10 times "Toxic masculinity" is thrown around as a way to make fun of someone's behavior, without any sort of suggestion as to how anything can be improved. It's an insult and it's usually mean-spirited.
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Change my mind - Taylor Swift
StevemacQ Platinum Sparx Gems: 6533
#18 Posted: 19:50:59 25/04/2018
I hate toxic masculinity. Being to told what does and doesn't define a man is the first I can legitimately find misandrous (sexist against men).

Many of the superpowers of the world run by walking embodiment of toxic masculinity is frightening, especially when one very king of America is trying to start a nuclear war over a similar angry manchild over a metaphorical dick-measuring contest, as well as encouraging literal Nazis to march out and start violence.

Oh! And saying you're a victim because a woman doesn't want to have sex with you to justify truly despicable acts of violence? A deluded notion of male entitlement born from toxic masculinity.
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Needz more eh-mo-shuns.
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#19 Posted: 21:08:43 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: DirtPrincess
The way toxic masculinity is most commonly used is definitely just for the sole purpose of shaming men. It's saying "this behavior is bad and let's make fun of them for it". I fully support men and women being able to express themselves however they want and I don't think it needs to be labeled as masculinity or femininity anyway. But the entire concept of toxic masculinity isn't a supportive, positive thing. It's a shaming thing.

9/10 times "Toxic masculinity" is thrown around as a way to make fun of someone's behavior, without any sort of suggestion as to how anything can be improved. It's an insult and it's usually mean-spirited.



That's exactly what I'm trying to dispel in this topic by laying out a clear definition for it. People tend to misinterpret it as an attack on traditional masculine traits when it has nothing to do with that, it's the harmful behaviors and beliefs that society has ingrained in men (see first post).

Nobody thinks it's okay to shame men for being men. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.

Quote: parisruelz12
if you want to attempt to give it concrete meaning, perhaps you should say "Toxicity is not limited to gender, however it can be defined as follows
-Suppression of negative and passive emotions
-the glorification of violence in ways that aren't recreational, or being violent against certain groups of people (race, sex, gender) "

I'm not too sure about strict adherence to gender roles, mainly because tumblr creates toxicity by trying to do the exact oppisite. Instead I think it should be:

"Being too traditional, and being too opposed too tradition"

if that makes sense.



That's even less concrete. Society impresses these views upon men in particular, and it's a problem that men in particular usually struggle with.

Watering it down is weak and ineffective. I'm not going to water it down.

Also, nobody said toxicity is limited to men. That's an idea you pulled out of your ass.

EDIT: Formatting sucks
Edited 5 times - Last edited at 21:22:26 25/04/2018 by Metallo
DirtPrincess Green Sparx Gems: 276
#20 Posted: 21:51:33 25/04/2018
You can say what you think it should mean, but what it actually means and how people use it the vast majority of the time is done in a way that is accusatory and berating towards men.
It's the same way with feminism. What people try to say that it means is very different than how it actually ends up being for most people, and the way that most people use something is the way that you have to view how it really is.
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Change my mind - Taylor Swift
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#21 Posted: 22:08:09 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: DirtPrincess
You can say what you think it should mean, but what it actually means and how people use it the vast majority of the time is done in a way that is accusatory and berating towards men.
It's the same way with feminism. What people try to say that it means is very different than how it actually ends up being for most people, and the way that most people use something is the way that you have to view how it really is.



Once again, this is the point of talking about it. Ideas spread and definitions shift. It takes time, but it happens.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, but I believe there's value in discussion, even on sites about purple dragons
King-Pen Krazy Yellow Sparx Gems: 1907
#22 Posted: 22:49:37 25/04/2018
Quote: Metallo
Quote: DirtPrincess
You can say what you think it should mean, but what it actually means and how people use it the vast majority of the time is done in a way that is accusatory and berating towards men.
It's the same way with feminism. What people try to say that it means is very different than how it actually ends up being for most people, and the way that most people use something is the way that you have to view how it really is.



Once again, this is the point of talking about it. Ideas spread and definitions shift. It takes time, but it happens.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, but I believe there's value in discussion, even on sites about purple dragons




Just replace "pour it right into cracks" with "Discuss political topics on a purple dragon website" and you get my point
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Rise and Shine Ursine
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#23 Posted: 23:18:46 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: King-Pen Krazy
Quote: Metallo
Quote: DirtPrincess
You can say what you think it should mean, but what it actually means and how people use it the vast majority of the time is done in a way that is accusatory and berating towards men.
It's the same way with feminism. What people try to say that it means is very different than how it actually ends up being for most people, and the way that most people use something is the way that you have to view how it really is.



Once again, this is the point of talking about it. Ideas spread and definitions shift. It takes time, but it happens.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, but I believe there's value in discussion, even on sites about purple dragons




Just replace "pour it right into cracks" with "Discuss political topics on a purple dragon website" and you get my point



Getting my thoughts out anywhere I can helps me formulate them, and it helps to get responses, too. Besides, dS isn't the only place I discuss this stuff.

Also, on a section called "Stuff & Nonsense," I'm not really obligated to have a reason for doing anything. But why is a good word to use.


By the way, Jontron is problematic af. -10 points for referencing him.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 23:20:59 25/04/2018 by Metallo
King-Pen Krazy Yellow Sparx Gems: 1907
#24 Posted: 23:21:22 25/04/2018
Quote: Metallo
Quote: King-Pen Krazy
Quote: Metallo



Once again, this is the point of talking about it. Ideas spread and definitions shift. It takes time, but it happens.

Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist, but I believe there's value in discussion, even on sites about purple dragons




Just replace "pour it right into cracks" with "Discuss political topics on a purple dragon website" and you get my point



Getting my thoughts out anywhere I can helps me formulate them, and it helps to get responses, too. Besides, dS isn't the only place I discuss this stuff.


Also, Jontron is problematic af. -10 points for referencing him.



Oh my ****ing god, I realize Jontron did say some ****, but why does that automatically make me a ****head. Am I not allowed to like someone's work just because of their personal life.

There are several singers i don't respect and yet I still listen to their music, why is this any different
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Rise and Shine Ursine
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#25 Posted: 23:24:43 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: King-Pen Krazy
Quote: Metallo
Quote: King-Pen Krazy




Just replace "pour it right into cracks" with "Discuss political topics on a purple dragon website" and you get my point



Getting my thoughts out anywhere I can helps me formulate them, and it helps to get responses, too. Besides, dS isn't the only place I discuss this stuff.


Also, Jontron is problematic af. -10 points for referencing him.



Oh my ****ing god, I realize Jontron did say some ****, but why does that automatically make me a ****head. Am I not allowed to like someone's work just because of their personal life.

There are several singers i don't respect and yet I still listen to their music, why is this any different



-15 points for overreacting

+5 points for asserting an opinion

-10 points for false equivalency

-5 points for making an assumption
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 23:25:00 25/04/2018 by Metallo
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#26 Posted: 23:27:33 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: Sesshomaru75
I mean, I don't agree with any of the things that Jon said during all that, but I still enjoy his videos. *shrug* Some of his fanbase bothers more, honestly.



In all honesty it's cool, I try not to listen to Lostprophets because of Ian Watkins but I don't skip when they come on my Pandora station

We're all guilty of it
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#27 Posted: 23:32:53 25/04/2018
The whole JonTron thing was horribly misconstrued and blown out of proportion. He's not a racist. Some of the people who still work for him are not white. They wouldn't do so if they had legitimate reasons to believe he's racist.

Many of his comments were taken out of context, and his opponent in the debate, Destiny, is not only known for setting people up for comments that get blown out of proportion, but is actual true scum himself. It disgusts me that people focus on JonTron when Destiny has, on stream, discussed detailed murder plans for killing random gamers online who he got mad at for beating him in games, and has been known to flirt with and chat up underage girls.

Also JonTron still makes good content so there's that too. Anyone who tries to say "referencing JonTron makes your argument invalid" legitimately doesn't know a thing about that case.
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"My memories will be part of the sky."
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 23:33:43 25/04/2018 by sonicbrawler182
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#28 Posted: 23:39:22 25/04/2018 | Topic Creator
In case it wasn't clear, I was joking. It's impossible for me to ignore an opportunity to crack wise

Buuuuuut on the subject.....

Quote: sonicbrawler182
He's not a racist. Some of the people who still work for him are not white. They wouldn't do so if they had legitimate reasons to believe he's racist.



This sounds like the old "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are -insert race here-. They wouldn't be my friends if I was racist" excuse

I might be judging too quickly and I'll look up the whole thing but it's pretty hard to see how comments like that can be "taken out of context." There's not much wiggle room in those terms

EDIT: I looked it up and I see what you mean. Doesn't 100% change my mind though
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 23:43:41 25/04/2018 by Metallo
King-Pen Krazy Yellow Sparx Gems: 1907
#29 Posted: 23:41:22 25/04/2018
Quote: Metallo
In case it wasn't clear, I was joking. It's impossible for me to ignore an opportunity to crack wise

Buuuuuut on the subject.....

Quote: sonicbrawler182
He's not a racist. Some of the people who still work for him are not white. They wouldn't do so if they had legitimate reasons to believe he's racist.



This sounds like the old "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are -insert race here-. They wouldn't be my friends if I was racist" excuse

I might be judging too quickly and I'll look up the whole thing but it's pretty hard to see how comments like that can be "taken out of context." There's not much wiggle room in those terms





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Rise and Shine Ursine
King-Pen Krazy Yellow Sparx Gems: 1907
#30 Posted: 23:56:27 25/04/2018
Quote: Sesshomaru75
Yeah, I figured you were joking, I just felt like adding my opinion on all of that.

Also, I think you need to try to relax just a little bit, King-Pen.



Sorry, I haven't had the best day, and honestly, this isn't helping much
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Rise and Shine Ursine
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#31 Posted: 00:01:09 26/04/2018
I'm not gonna say JonTron didn't do anything wrong. His biggest mistake really, was signing up for an argument with one of the most difficult people on the internet. That's what led to JonTron being unable to phrase his points correctly, because Destiny would constantly butt in to distract Jon and cloud his points. Jon did make a follow up video more properly explaining what he meant, and I frankly agree with his points to a certain degree. His main point was that we should "drop the hyphens" - that is, labels such as "African-American" and "Asian-American" shouldn't exist because it makes an inherent, societal distinction between white people and non-white people. White people are "American", black people are "African-American", and so forth. By creating such labels, we create distinctions, which creates racism. If everyone who is an American citizen is simply called "American", then there is less of an implication that the skin colour of two American citizens makes them different from one another, and encourages treating them as equals.

This is the main "racist" argument JonTron wanted to make.

And as a non-American, I think it makes perfect sense. I live in Ireland. There are lots of counties within Ireland, each with different cultural histories, different accents, linguistic differences, etc. There is actually more cultural difference between people of different Irish counties than different American people with different skin colours living within the same area at the same time. And yet, we don't have hyphens here. We don't have "Dublin-Irish", "Meath-Irish", "Cork-Irish", etc. You're just "Irish".

We do have a distinction between "Irish" and "Northern Irish", but that's only because the Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are actually two distinct nations.
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"My memories will be part of the sky."
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 00:02:30 26/04/2018 by sonicbrawler182
Bifrost Diamond Sparx Gems: 9943
#32 Posted: 00:05:37 26/04/2018
Didn't Jon say something about people tainting the gene pool?

EITHER WAY, that doesn't undermine an argument when you use a reaction video from him. Usually those are reposted by people other than him so he's not seeing a cent even if it's monetized. More than try to purge yourself from anything problematic, sometimes you have to separate the art from the artist if what they created is still useful. Like say, a quick video where he says something appropriate to the conversation in a funny voice.
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SO I'LL GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT
(What I need is never what I want)
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#33 Posted: 00:40:25 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: sonicbrawler182
His main point was that we should "drop the hyphens" - that is, labels such as "African-American" and "Asian-American" shouldn't exist because it makes an inherent, societal distinction between white people and non-white people. White people are "American", black people are "African-American", and so forth. By creating such labels, we create distinctions, which creates racism. If everyone who is an American citizen is simply called "American", then there is less of an implication that the skin colour of two American citizens makes them different from one another, and encourages treating them as equals.

This is the main "racist" argument JonTron wanted to make.

And as a non-American, I think it makes perfect sense. I live in Ireland. There are lots of counties within Ireland, each with different cultural histories, different accents, linguistic differences, etc. There is actually more cultural difference between people of different Irish counties than different American people with different skin colours living within the same area at the same time. And yet, we don't have hyphens here. We don't have "Dublin-Irish", "Meath-Irish", "Cork-Irish", etc. You're just "Irish".

We do have a distinction between "Irish" and "Northern Irish", but that's only because the Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are actually two distinct nations.



As an American, I can tell you that it's far more complicated than that and I honestly think it's pretty damn presumptuous of you to try and tell me otherwise as a non-American.

That opinion isn't bad, but it's very naive. Doing away with demographic labels and calling everyone "American" carries the disturbing implication of erasing identities. Our country has such a long and terrible history of assimilation and displacement that those labels are among the best forms of distinction in our society (which is sad - there's already so much pressure for assimilation in American society). In this sense, getting rid of them would be to pretend that said erasure never happened, and that we all sang songs around a campfire. The reality, as we know, is grim.

While I concur that institutional racism is the product of man-made distinctions, I think it's ignorant to say that the labeling distinctions create racism when history clearly shows us otherwise. The term "African-American," for example, wasn't even coined until the 1980s (and it wasn't officially adopted by the federal government until 1997); before that, it was "Negro" on a good day. I hope you don't mean to tell me that American racism didn't start until those terms were used.

I've never been to Ireland so I can't comment on its cultural landscape, but I think your statement of its cultural diversity is a cheap attempt to downplay that of America. We're not the melting pot that the world perceives us to be - next door neighbors can live in two different worlds. If everyone there's just "Irish," then good for you, I guess. But America has a long way to go before we can get to that point.

In short, I'm not saying that demographic labeling is awesome and we should keep it, I'm just saying why that argument is naive and shortsighted. Those labels did not create the societal distinction, our ancestors and their institutions did. Using those labels is our only way to acknowledge it; erasing them would be erasing history.
Edited 3 times - Last edited at 00:44:28 26/04/2018 by Metallo
C1nder Prismatic Sparx Gems: 10045
#34 Posted: 01:01:38 26/04/2018
Wasn't his controversy more around his belief of white genocide, questioning whether colonialism was bad and his statement on crime committed by African Americans? (This is a genuine question, it happened so long ago I've forgotten the details).

Back on topic though, I think TheFlyingSeal's experience with her male friend outlines a very real effect toxic masculinity can have on boys growing up and how they feel discouraged to express themselves honestly/how they want the world to perceive them.
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#35 Posted: 01:02:50 26/04/2018
I didn't say these hyphen labels were the single cause of racism, or that they started racism, not at all. They just don't help things and I think their negatives outweigh their uses.

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual. I'm aware people take pride in those labels and consider them part of their identity, but I feel people should do so knowing the consequences of tying one's identity to a label. It's the same with other kinds of labels too.

And you completely misunderstood my point in the cultural differences between Irish counties. I'm not downplaying American culture, I'm saying that it would make more sense for hyphen labels to exist over here because of the fact people from different counties have some very notable differences between them and come from different cultures. It's akin to the difference between American States. Yet we still don't use these hyphens, because if you are born and raised in Ireland, you are Irish.

However, when it comes to "American", "African-American", "Asian-American", etc, this labels are used purely to denote skin colour. Which contributes to these discriminatory distinctions people have. Yet, most African-Americans, Asian-Americans, etc, are all born and raised in America, and America alone. How many African-Americans do you know that have actually been to Africa, or practice African culture, especially of the current generation? You won't find many.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the many people with English and American heritage in Ireland. Those born and raised in Ireland, simply consider themselves Irish. Heck, I have Italian heritage myself. I don't call myself "Italian-Irish". I was born and raised in Ireland, so for all intents and purposes, and according to law, I'm simply Irish. This is literally no different to "African-Americans" and so on.

Again, at the end of the day, it's up to the individual. But I don't see the logical reason for carrying these hyphens.

Also, it's very inconsistent anyway - why isn't there "Irish-American", or "British-American", and so on? Just "African-American", and "Asian-American", because they have notably different physical features? That's sort of why those labels have been harmful to those people.
---
"My memories will be part of the sky."
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#36 Posted: 01:05:27 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: C1nder
Back on topic though, I think TheFlyingSeal's experience with her male friend outlines a very real effect toxic masculinity can have on boys growing up and how they feel discouraged to express themselves honestly/how they want the world to perceive them.



Exactly. I was picked on all my childhood for not being manly enough. I always thought something was wrong with me.
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#37 Posted: 01:16:04 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: sonicbrawler182
I didn't say these hyphen labels were the single cause of racism, or that they started racism, not at all. They just don't help things and I think their negatives outweigh their uses.

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual. I'm aware people take pride in those labels and consider them part of their identity, but I feel people should do so knowing the consequences of tying one's identity to a label. It's the same with other kinds of labels too.

However, when it comes to "American", "African-American", "Asian-American", etc, this labels are used purely to denote skin colour. Which contributes to these discriminatory distinctions people have. Yet, most African-Americans, Asian-Americans, etc, are all born and raised in America, and America alone. How many African-Americans do you know that have actually been to Africa, or practice African culture, especially of the current generation? You won't find many.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the many people with English and American heritage in Ireland. Those born and raised in Ireland, simply consider themselves Irish. Heck, I have Italian heritage myself. I don't call myself "Italian-Irish". I was born and raised in Ireland, so for all intents and purposes, and according to law, I'm simply Irish. This is literally no different to "African-Americans" and so on.

Again, at the end of the day, it's up to the individual. But I don't see the logical reason for carrying these hyphens.

Also, it's very inconsistent anyway - why isn't there "Irish-American", or "British-American", and so on? Just "African-American", and "Asian-American", because they have notably different physical features? That's sort of why those labels have been harmful to those people.


In response to the bold:


1. You heavily implied it. Use more careful phrasing next time.

2. Believe me, they know.

3. No, they don't all purely denote skin color. They largely exist to denote ethnic origins (i.e. Hispanic/non-Hispanic Americans) and in some cases nationality (Italian-American, etc). As far as the current generation goes, there's a cultural awakening of sorts occurring - daishikis are becoming popular for black millennials, for example.

4. Actually, those labels do exist. They're not used as commonly on official documentation, but they pop up every now and then. Same with Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Armenian-Americans and so on and so forth. They're more common when referring to 2nd or 3rd generation, but can refer to anyone of that descent.


It's becoming more and more apparent that you know next to nothing about race relations in America (or hell, American cultures in general). Please stop making assumptions.
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 01:22:31 26/04/2018 by Metallo
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#38 Posted: 01:23:30 26/04/2018
Quote:
3. No, they don't all purely denote skin color. They largely exist to denote ethnic origins (i.e. Hispanic/non-Hispanic Americans) and in some cases nationality (Italian-American, etc).


These days, they do.

Because as you just re-affirmed for me, phrases such as "British-American" and "Irish-American" aren't used on equal terms. Only the ones for people with different skin colour are still used so regurlarly.

Them being used in the past, but not being used anymore, is evidence that the ones that are still used as standard have some kind of special distinction. I wonder what that could be?

I'm not making any assumptions. Last I checked, you are the one projecting the idea that I think these labels are the only cause of racism, when I made no reference to that effect. And assuming that I didn't know phrases like "British-American" existed - my last question merely asked why they aren't used.

I'm simply pointing out a glaring inconsistency. I just think these labels are obsolete and unnecessary at this point, especially given all of the lives they've ruined.
---
"My memories will be part of the sky."
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 01:25:51 26/04/2018 by sonicbrawler182
King-Pen Krazy Yellow Sparx Gems: 1907
#39 Posted: 01:23:44 26/04/2018
Quote: sonicbrawler182
I didn't say these hyphen labels were the single cause of racism, or that they started racism, not at all. They just don't help things and I think their negatives outweigh their uses.

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual. I'm aware people take pride in those labels and consider them part of their identity, but I feel people should do so knowing the consequences of tying one's identity to a label. It's the same with other kinds of labels too.

And you completely misunderstood my point in the cultural differences between Irish counties. I'm not downplaying American culture, I'm saying that it would make more sense for hyphen labels to exist over here because of the fact people from different counties have some very notable differences between them and come from different cultures. It's akin to the difference between American States. Yet we still don't use these hyphens, because if you are born and raised in Ireland, you are Irish.

However, when it comes to "American", "African-American", "Asian-American", etc, this labels are used purely to denote skin colour. Which contributes to these discriminatory distinctions people have. Yet, most African-Americans, Asian-Americans, etc, are all born and raised in America, and America alone. How many African-Americans do you know that have actually been to Africa, or practice African culture, especially of the current generation? You won't find many.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the many people with English and American heritage in Ireland. Those born and raised in Ireland, simply consider themselves Irish. Heck, I have Italian heritage myself. I don't call myself "Italian-Irish". I was born and raised in Ireland, so for all intents and purposes, and according to law, I'm simply Irish. This is literally no different to "African-Americans" and so on.

Again, at the end of the day, it's up to the individual. But I don't see the logical reason for carrying these hyphens.

Also, it's very inconsistent anyway - why isn't there "Irish-American", or "British-American", and so on? Just "African-American", and "Asian-American", because they have notably different physical features? That's sort of why those labels have been harmful to those people.



Uhm, I mean, I don't know how to say this but

That does exist
---
Rise and Shine Ursine
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#40 Posted: 01:33:13 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: sonicbrawler182
Quote:
3. No, they don't all purely denote skin color. They largely exist to denote ethnic origins (i.e. Hispanic/non-Hispanic Americans) and in some cases nationality (Italian-American, etc).


These days, they do.

Because as you just re-affirmed for me, phrases such as "British-American" and "Irish-American" aren't used on equal terms. Only the ones for people with different skin colour are still used so regurlarly.

Them being used in the past, but not being used anymore, is evidence that the ones that are still used as standard have some kind of special distinction. I wonder what that could be?

I'm not making any assumptions. Last I checked, you are the one projecting the idea that I think these labels are the only cause of racism, when I made no reference to that effect.

I'm simply pointing out a glaring inconsistency. I just think these labels are obsolete and unnecessary at this point, especially given all of the lives they've ruined.



This is going to be really blunt and rude but there's no other way I can say it:

You don't live here. You don't know. You don't understand. End of story.

Yes, the more prominent labels coincide with skin color. I did not deny that. But there's a lot more than just skin color at play here. There's history, identity, and culture. And yes, there is a glaring inconsistency, which is part of the problem; the identities Americans of European descent have become much more "acceptable" if you catch my drift. But that's another topic for another day.

Once again, these labels did not ruin lives. The beliefs and practices that came long before them did.

You and I see the same problem, but I disagree that erasing the labels will help solve it any quicker. Not at this rate.

My bottom line with you is that you can't tell me how things work in my country when I've spent my entire life here and seen it with my own eyes. It's presumptuous to think otherwise.
Edited 2 times - Last edited at 01:34:53 26/04/2018 by Metallo
King-Pen Krazy Yellow Sparx Gems: 1907
#41 Posted: 01:35:00 26/04/2018
Quote: Metallo
Quote: sonicbrawler182
Quote:
3. No, they don't all purely denote skin color. They largely exist to denote ethnic origins (i.e. Hispanic/non-Hispanic Americans) and in some cases nationality (Italian-American, etc).


These days, they do.

Because as you just re-affirmed for me, phrases such as "British-American" and "Irish-American" aren't used on equal terms. Only the ones for people with different skin colour are still used so regurlarly.

Them being used in the past, but not being used anymore, is evidence that the ones that are still used as standard have some kind of special distinction. I wonder what that could be?

I'm not making any assumptions. Last I checked, you are the one projecting the idea that I think these labels are the only cause of racism, when I made no reference to that effect.

I'm simply pointing out a glaring inconsistency. I just think these labels are obsolete and unnecessary at this point, especially given all of the lives they've ruined.



This is going to be really blunt and rude but there's no other way I can say it:

You don't live here. You don't know. End of story.

Yes, the more prominent labels coincide with skin color. I did not deny that. But there's a lot more than just skin color at play here. There's history, identity, and culture. And yes, there is a glaring inconsistency, which is part of the problem; the identities Americans of European descent have become much more "acceptable" if you catch my drift. But that's another topic for another day.

Once again, these labels did not ruin lives. The beliefs and practices that came long before them did.

You and I see the same problem, but I disagree that erasing the labels will help solve it any quicker. Not at this rate.

My bottom line with you is that you can't tell me how things work in my country when I've spent my entire life here and seen it with my own eyes. It's presumptuous to think otherwise.


"**** off Human, what do you know about animals"
---
Rise and Shine Ursine
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#42 Posted: 01:37:50 26/04/2018
Quote:
Yes, the more prominent labels coincide with skin color. I did not deny that. But there's a lot more than just skin color at play here. There's history, identity, and culture.


Just like how there is history, identity, and culture associated with all of the Irish citizens with non-Irish heritage, such as myself.

Yet we don't use the hyphens. And we also have a whole lot less racism.

I don't need to live in your country to know how it works. America isn't as much of a special snowflake as you have repeatedly been shown to believe it is over the years.
---
"My memories will be part of the sky."
DirtPrincess Green Sparx Gems: 276
#43 Posted: 01:41:36 26/04/2018
The comments you're making about "You don't live here. You don't know. End of story." Can apply to you speaking for races and cultures other than your own, no?

I don't know what race you are or what cultures you're a part of, but you seem to be speaking a lot for all of them but not letting someone else speak about a different culture too.
---
Change my mind - Taylor Swift
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#44 Posted: 01:44:47 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: sonicbrawler182
Quote:
Yes, the more prominent labels coincide with skin color. I did not deny that. But there's a lot more than just skin color at play here. There's history, identity, and culture.


Just like how there is history, identity, and culture associated with all of the Irish citizens with non-Irish heritage, such as myself.

Yet we don't use the hyphens. And we also have a whole lot less racism.

I don't need to live in your country to know how it works. America isn't as much of a special snowflake as you have repeatedly been shown to believe it is over the years.



Are you even listening? I never said America was too special to understand, I'm saying that your words do not invalidate the reality I have seen my entire life, especially when you've never seen that same reality. I'm not making those same judgments about Ireland for the same reason; I've never lived there and I don't know how things work there. I'd be an asshat if I thought otherwise.

Even so, America is not Ireland.

What works for you may not work for us. Living here, I can promise you that it wouldn't.

Quote: DirtPrincess
The comments you're making about "You don't live here. You don't know. End of story." Can apply to you speaking for races and cultures other than your own, no?

I don't know what race you are or what cultures you're a part of, but you seem to be speaking a lot for all of them but not letting someone else speak about a different culture too.



I'm not speaking for them, I'm speaking for the practice of distinction that's been imposed on them. I can see how it'd come off that way, though. Wasn't my intention.

Also, note that I'm not invalidating his comments about Irish cultures.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 01:46:35 26/04/2018 by Metallo
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#45 Posted: 01:53:36 26/04/2018
Quote:
Are you even listening? I never said America was too special to understand, I'm saying that your words do not invalidate the reality I have seen my entire life


I'm also not saying that my words invalidate the reality you have seen your whole life. Which for the record, is the same as mine, unless the Internet developed the capability to communicate across world lines overnight.

What I am saying, is that there is a possibility that the use of hyphens when referring to one's nationality is a contributing factor in the extended existence of racism, and that dropping them would lessen the perpetuation of racist values. And there are examples to support this notion. You seem unreasonably opposed to considering this possibility, which strikes me as odd. But I'm not gonna tell you what to believe, I'm just laying things out as they are.
---
"My memories will be part of the sky."
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#46 Posted: 01:56:29 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: sonicbrawler182
Quote:
Are you even listening? I never said America was too special to understand, I'm saying that your words do not invalidate the reality I have seen my entire life


I'm also not saying that my words invalidate the reality you have seen your whole life. Which for the record, is the same as mine, unless the Internet developed the capability to communicate across world lines overnight.

What I am saying, is that there is a possibility that the use of hyphens when referring to one's nationality is a contributing factor in the extended existence of racism, and that dropping them would lessen the perpetuation of racist values. And there are examples to support this notion. You seem unreasonably opposed to considering this possibility, which strikes me as odd. But I'm not gonna tell you what to believe, I'm just laying things out as they are.


I'm opposed to it because as I alluded to earlier, there is currently a cultural awakening occurring among young POC in America. Removing labels would most likely be seen as an erasure of identity, which I promise you would be met with hostility.

How do I know this? Oh I don't know, maybe it's because I actually live in America

Is there a possibility it would work? Sure. But it's a pretty small possibility.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 01:57:13 26/04/2018 by Metallo
sonicbrawler182 Platinum Sparx Gems: 7089
#47 Posted: 02:01:16 26/04/2018
But a possibility is still a possibility. That means it has merit and is worth consideration.
---
"My memories will be part of the sky."
Metallo Platinum Sparx Gems: 6419
#48 Posted: 02:09:20 26/04/2018 | Topic Creator
Quote: sonicbrawler182
But a possibility is still a possibility. That means it has merit and is worth consideration.



Dude....No. Just no.

I can see the theoretical and philosophical value in that statement, but I can't get behind it practically. Especially in a context like this.

There's a possibility that I'll end up rich if I bet my life savings while gambling.

There's a possibility that I'll get a perfect grade if I mark random answers on an exam.

There's a possibility that I can play Russian Roulette and live to tell about it.

Possibilities should not contradict reason, especially when there's so much on the line. In the context of America, yours does.
Edited 1 time - Last edited at 02:11:19 26/04/2018 by Metallo
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