darkSpyro

Do we stick with our ingrained habits for life or can we consciously break them?

Quote: Iceclaw

Unless someone points out those habits or you yourself realise it, you probably won't break them.

This. It's easy to take things for granted and not even realize you're doing them.

someone can't really change "how they were raised" but it's no excuse to be a gigantic piece of ****

Quote: valskeletor

someone can't really change "how they were raised" but it's no excuse to be a gigantic piece of ****

wtf yes it is

how is it not

Quote: Ninpire

Quote: valskeletor

someone can't really change "how they were raised" but it's no excuse to be a gigantic piece of ****

wtf yes it is

how is it not

"TIME TO JUMP BACK IN THE TIME MACHINE AND MAKE MY PARENTS NOT TO TEACH RACIST/HOMOPHOBIC/TRANSPHOBIC/SEXIST/ETC THINGS TO ME"

you can't change the way you were raised, but you can strive to be better than what you were taught to think.

that didn't really answer anything but ok

then what do you want answered exactly?

Why is being a raised a gigantic turd not an excuse for being a gigantic turd

someone cannot change the fact that they were raised in an environment intended to make them into a gigantic turd

however, they can choose to not be a gigantic turd in spite of the fact that the environment they were raised in intended for them to be one.

which is pretty much what i said in my first post but whatever

Is someone going to quote Mewtwo or nah

"im a pokemon" - mewtwo

Quote: valskeletor

someone cannot change the fact that they were raised in an environment intended to make them into a gigantic turd

however, they can choose to not be a gigantic turd in spite of the fact that the environment they were raised in intended for them to be one.

which is pretty much what i said in my first post but whatever

But if they were raised a gigantic turd then why would they make a choice to not be a gigantic turd

I agree with Ninpire
They would have to be exposed to life outside of that or new ideas to go agains the way they were thinking, or question a lot,
But in most cases, the way they were raised is a good excuse,

Quote: Ninpire

Quote: valskeletor

someone cannot change the fact that they were raised in an environment intended to make them into a gigantic turd

however, they can choose to not be a gigantic turd in spite of the fact that the environment they were raised in intended for them to be one.

which is pretty much what i said in my first post but whatever

But if they were raised a gigantic turd then why would they make a choice to not be a gigantic turd

maybe the had an experience with another culture, like a child brought up to be racist meeting an exchange student from africa in his school. or maybe they learned they were taught in an ignorant way by going to college and talking with other students. maybe by going to the library to study for a project, they came across a book that changed their way of thinking, maybe the child brought up to be homophobic realized that they were gay. perhaps in our modern world, they learned about other people and other ways of thinking on the internet. the possibilities are endless, really. in fact, considering how much technology and media and big companies have brought together culture and brought new ideas to places from other parts of the world, if someone is a gigantic turd, then it pretty much has to be a conscious choice, since the opportunity and accessibility to NOT be a gigantic turd is so widely available.

if someone bigoted comes across reasonable information and proof that their bigotry is wrong, and then they refuse to accept it, then they have chosen to be ignorant of the real world and deserving of all the criticism that they can receive for their choice, and in this world where proof and information about why it is so wrong to be bigoted is so easily accessible and even pushed onto you, there is no excuse to say that they never came across the information that shows how wrong they are.

it shouldnt matter how you were raised because you should ****in know the difference between right and wrong

Quote: Sesshomaru75

I think you're both missing the point.

Just because someone was raised to be a turd doesn't mean they should remain that way for the rest of their life.

Being raised a certain way doesn't excuse you being an asshole, especially if you're an adult who's capable of forming your own opinions.

I never said they should. I'm only saying that it isn't a bad excuse

You have to remember that a way a person is raised heavily affects their way of thinking, so the opinions they end up forming would be incredibly similar to the ones they've believed while growing up. Unless they're someone who hates their family or the people surrounding them and want nothing to do with them.

So yeah, it's a reasonable excuse for someones behavior to be turdish due to the way they were raised because they're acting accordingly to what they believe to be right and wrong, no matter what others may believe

And there really isn't anything that's set in stone about what's right and what's wrong either, unless it's the law

Quote: Sesshomaru75

I think you're both missing the point.

Just because someone was raised to be a turd doesn't mean they should remain that way for the rest of their life.

Being raised a certain way doesn't excuse you being an asshole, especially if you're an adult who's capable of forming your own opinions.

that's pretty much what i felt like i said

Quote: Ninpire

Quote: Sesshomaru75

I think you're both missing the point.

Just because someone was raised to be a turd doesn't mean they should remain that way for the rest of their life.

Being raised a certain way doesn't excuse you being an asshole, especially if you're an adult who's capable of forming your own opinions.

I never said they should. I'm only saying that it isn't a bad excuse

You have to remember that a way a person is raised heavily affects their way of thinking, so the opinions they end up forming would be incredibly similar to the ones they've believed while growing up. Unless they're someone who hates their family or the people surrounding them and want nothing to do with them.

So yeah, it's a reasonable excuse for someones behavior to be turdish due to the way they were raised because they're acting accordingly to what they believe to be right and wrong, no matter what others may believe

And there really isn't anything that's set in stone about what's right and what's wrong either, unless it's the law

if someone is an adult capable of understanding that they can be wrong, and they're given the opportunity and valid logical proof to show that they are wrong, they're not excused for refusing to believe the truth. you don't get a ****ing pass because you're too stupid and afraid of the real world to act like an adult when you're given clear and ample opportunity to do so.

maybe that excuse would have worked 200 years ago when people genuinely had no way of knowing the truth, but in this age of information, if you refuse to acknowledge that the world revolves around more than just you, you deserve the harshest criticism you can get and blatant disregard of your opinion, because you refused to be more educated and experienced when you very easily could have been. the fact that we tolerate this **** in 2015 is pathetic. once you choose to not learn about the things you're wrong about, it's not ignorance, it's stupidity, and it should be treated as such.

Quote: Ninpire

But if they were raised a gigantic turd then why would they make a choice to not be a gigantic turd

Not to be rude, but it's called growing up.

I think once you're over 25, living on your own, and have the ability to form your own opinions and ideas, "it's how I was raised" doesn't really stand as an excuse anymore. Yes, many ways of thinking can and often are formed by those you grew up around. But eventually when you're interacting with other people you see other opinions and can gain them, or even form entirely new ones.

I understand what you're getting at. But I think if a 40 year old is still highly against gay rights, there's more to it than just how they were raised. It's also how they legitimately feel after all this time and that they themselves find it wrong, not just that their parents still tell them so.

^but what if the 40 year old in question was raised in an environment where that's perfectly fine? They won't randomly go against something that's been okay for their entire life

I've seen a lot of people with religious families that aren't religious, because none of it really clicked with them, but if someone actually did believe in all of that because it was openly presented to them, you can't really blame them for holding onto their beliefs.

And like I said before, right and wrong isn't entirely set in stone, that's why there are controversial topics to begin with. People can accept that they are wrong when they see things that prove to them that they're wrong, but if there isn't anything that does they have no reason to accept someone else's beliefs

There comes a point where something you were taught as a child is something you are believing in for your own reasons.

There are a couple of ideals/habits I was taught by my parents as a child, that they no longer follow, but I still do, not because "mommy said it was good", but because I legitimately feel they are benefiting me.

Quote: Thunderdragon14

it shouldnt matter how you were raised because you should ****in know the difference between right and wrong

Right and wrong is subjective to your experiences.

Quote: spyrolvr96

Quote: Thunderdragon14

it shouldnt matter how you were raised because you should ****in know the difference between right and wrong

Right and wrong is subjective to your experiences.

you should know how to fit the barest definition of a decent human being

Of whatever they taught you, you must keep what benefits you and what you think is correct.


So to all those little douchebags who think hitting or hurting others when they "deserve it" is okay you can stop using "my dad taught me like this" as an excuse.

Quote: Ninpire

^but what if the 40 year old in question was raised in an environment where that's perfectly fine? They won't randomly go against something that's been okay for their entire life

You've got a point there. My hometown has plenty of middle-aged people who have never left our area and therefore know nothing besides barebones Bible belt culture.

Quote: Spyrobaro

Even if your parents taught you to think a certain way you can very easily learn better as you meet more people.

For example, many people I know are super homophobic, and I didn't think that homosexuality was a legitimate thing until I started using the internet. Then I met many friends who I found out aren't straight, and I realized that everyone I had met who had forced that idea on me were wrong. I realized that my family isn't always instantly right.

It's important to learn how to take information others tell you and be able to formulate your own stance on a subject. Blindly following the first thing you're told is your own fault, you have to learn that people you love are going to be wrong sometimes.

- - -

Quote: valskeletor

Quote: spyrolvr96

Quote: Thunderdragon14

it shouldnt matter how you were raised because you should ****in know the difference between right and wrong

Right and wrong is subjective to your experiences.

you should know how to fit the barest definition of a decent human being

But isn't every notion of right and wrong forged by intangible societal principles?

What is "Right" and what is "Wrong" is determined merely by the opinions of society.

Quote: Metallo

Quote: valskeletor

Quote: spyrolvr96

Right and wrong is subjective to your experiences.

you should know how to fit the barest definition of a decent human being

But isn't every notion of right and wrong forged by intangible societal principles?

alright there nietzsche, i understand what you're trying to say, but there are things that are worldly and logically considered "good" (i.e. respect, politeness, donation, concern, intelligence, and general care for your fellow human) and things that are worldly and logically considered "bad" (i.e. murder, stealing, rudeness, hatred, lack of passion, ignorance, stupidity, etc.)

how about people just try to do what's best for our species as a whole, such as equality, liberty, education, politeness, and a bit of compassion for other people. i would hardly call doing what's best for the survival of our species constructed by social norms.

Quote: valskeletor

Quote: Metallo

Quote: valskeletor

you should know how to fit the barest definition of a decent human being

But isn't every notion of right and wrong forged by intangible societal principles?

alright there nietzsche, i understand what you're trying to say, but there are things that are worldly and logically considered "good" (i.e. respect, politeness, donation, concern, intelligence, and general care for your fellow human) and things that are worldly and logically considered "bad" (i.e. murder, stealing, rudeness, hatred, lack of passion, ignorance, stupidity, etc.)

how about people just try to do what's best for our species as a whole, such as equality, liberty, education, politeness, and a bit of compassion for other people. i would hardly call doing what's best for the survival of our species constructed by social norms.

Disclaimer: I wholeheartedly agree, I just like to play Devil's Advocate sometimes

Quote: Mrmorrises

What is "Right" and what is "Wrong" is determined merely by the opinions of society.

-----

How's about another example?

My parents (Catholic) didn't really have any strong opinions one way or the other about gay people. As such, I myself didn't really have any thoughts on the matter. However, my religious grandmother was (and still is) against it, and would tell my brother and I this often, especially after my mother passed and she started reading us the Bible. So for a bit of time (a year or so?) I myself was anti-LGBT, with the whole "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" reasoning and all.

Later on while people were talking about the issue, I brought up my reasoning. People didn't trash on me or call me bigoted or hateful (like a good amount of people like to, even here sometimes) but rather explained why it may not be the right way of thinking. I realized that my way of thinking was, quite frankly, wrong, and I changed and became pro-LGBT.

Sure how you were raised can instill certain beliefs into you. But as you grow up and interact with more people your views may change and after a while "it's how I grew up" isn't entirely acceptable anymore. Your parents aren't constantly over your shoulder telling you what to believe all your life.

Quote: Ninpire

^but what if the 40 year old in question was raised in an environment where that's perfectly fine? They won't randomly go against something that's been okay for their entire life

I've seen a lot of people with religious families that aren't religious, because none of it really clicked with them, but if someone actually did believe in all of that because it was openly presented to them, you can't really blame them for holding onto their beliefs.

And like I said before, right and wrong isn't entirely set in stone, that's why there are controversial topics to begin with. People can accept that they are wrong when they see things that prove to them that they're wrong, but if there isn't anything that does they have no reason to accept someone else's beliefs

If someone carries the religious beliefs they learned as child into adulthood, it's not because they were raised that way and their parents are continuing to tell them so. They themselves believe it and find it to be right.

You know, "environment" doesn't necessarily mean "family." A persons family isn't the only factor in a persons growth. The people someone chooses to interact with when they're growing up can also affect how they think and behave. Which is why parents tell their children to stay away from kids who do drugs. It's why some don't get along with others. For example, I see people always complaining about people making dark jokes. The people making those jokes generally hang around others who don't have a problem with it, but when someone does have a problem with it, they might just get annoyed or say sorry and stay away from that person.

tl;dr I get it parents won't always be telling people what to do

Using it as an excuse to be an *** is

Just being raised in a certain way isnt

But not changing the ways you live is