darkSpyro

Third wave feminists advocate for social equality, not legal rights. Therefore, the argument that no women are legally oppressed in developed countries is pointless, because that's not what feminists here are advocating.

Furthermore, social equality is hella subjective, so using objective aspects of society (such as law and industry) to tell feminists that their ideology is useless is all but moronic.

Metallo out.

The argument I first thought of is the subject of objectification of women in the form of sexuality. Like women being eyecandy.

In the interest of equality I feel like either media should objectify men in similar ways (e.g. **** like Magic Mike), or objectification of either gender ends. The latter certainly isn't going to happen ever.

EDIT: Another thing actually. While a lot of people have used the argument that "not everyone who dislikes your movie is sexist" in regards to Ghostbusters, and it's certainly true, there absolutely is a decent portion of people who had gripes with the film ever since it was even announced merely because the main cast was all women. You can't turn a blind eye to that or try and antagonize SJWs and feminists as simply making up a problem that doesn't exist when like it or not there was one, even if it wasn't as big as they like to claim it is.

Tell me then, what EXACTLY is so wrong with society now for women. If they aren't legally oppressed and are equal in the law here in America... what's the issue? Mean people on the Internet??? SEXY VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS????

I'm serious, what is the big deal that we still need feminism?

And, CAV... I'm not denying there a sexist people, but people hating an unfunny female comedy film is such a non issue!

Not going to mention men can go topless unlike women (Unless your at a swimming pool/beach)

Quote: Windumup

Not going to mention men can go topless unlike women (Unless your at a swimming pool/beach)

Women have boobs... Boobs that many men find sexy and would only increase sexual assaults in America. It is the most counter productive measure ever

Quote: Windumup

Not going to mention men can go topless unlike women (Unless your at a swimming pool/beach)

Honestly, I just think that nobody should be allowed topless and call it at that. I for one don't want to see anyone's bare chest out in public, so why not make it equal. (and frankly most men that wander around shirtless make me gag anyway)

need i mention harmfully demeaning stereotypes media has for women

Quote: Windumup

Not going to mention men can go topless unlike women (Unless your at a swimming pool/beach)

Most women would prefer not to show their boobs to strangers. But this all evolved from sexism from the past where boobs would be a symbol of sex. There's also the double standard women being able to show more of their butt than men.

^That can also be a media issue too in both directions. If a woman shows off skin it's attractive and tantalizing both in media and fiction. A man does it and it's usually a comedic gag or a case of public indecency.
Guy shows his butt on TV and it's hilarious gross out humor appropriate for all ages. Girl does it and it's controversial sexuality that has no place on TV.

In Times Square I once saw a group of women legitimately nude with just body paint covering up the particularly bad bits. Times Square is a massive tourist spot which means a lot of kids, but nobody was calling cops for public indecency. Let's have a group of guys try to walk in nude with body paint and see just how well that goes over.

Also in media if a woman is obsessively following and flirting with someone it's cute and charming but if a guy does it it's creepy and a case to call the police.
D.VA makes all these gamer quotes and references and everyone loves her and waifus her to the edge of the Earth, but if it were a male character saying "NERF THIS" people would be calling it some of the most cringeworthy stuff put in a game.

Quote: C1nder

need i mention harmfully demeaning stereotypes media has for women

so men aren't stereotyped as either stupid, womanizing or a football playing jerk?


you can't say that the media just stereotypes one thing. thats not how it works. everything has a stereotype. all of the races men, women, children. hell, even the personalities that cats and dogs have are stereotypes set by the media. it's not as one sided as some of those extreme sjw's like to think.

Quote: C1nder

need i mention harmfully demeaning stereotypes media has for women

Both sides are stereotyped pretty heavily.
Men are expected to wolf down the Earth to find the perfect maiden by age 20, listen to heavy metal, ride motorcycles, be fat/work out all the same, talk about women 24/7... It really goes both ways.

EDIT: Thanks paris, all men LOVE football.

American Style Feminists are just misandrists who use western acceptance of women's rights for their own personal gain. They shouldn't even be called feminists, because they are not.

Also in part because of media men grow up being taught they aren't allowed to be emotional or else be seen as sissy, unstable, immature, and overall weak.

Meanwhile women being emotional is too often expected. "Of course she's going to cry about that she's a woman". It sucks both ways.

At this point this is my own little thread of rambles when I can think of things.

Quote: parisruelz12

Quote: C1nder

need i mention harmfully demeaning stereotypes media has for women

so men aren't stereotyped as either stupid, womanizing or a football playing jerk?


you can't say that the media just stereotypes one thing. thats not how it works. everything has a stereotype. all of the races men, women, children. hell, even the personalities that cats and dogs have are stereotypes set by the media. it's not as one sided as some of those extreme sjw's like to think.

i never said men werent stereotyped in media i was just answering toynerd's question lol

Quote: C1nder

Quote: parisruelz12

Quote: C1nder

need i mention harmfully demeaning stereotypes media has for women

so men aren't stereotyped as either stupid, womanizing or a football playing jerk?


you can't say that the media just stereotypes one thing. thats not how it works. everything has a stereotype. all of the races men, women, children. hell, even the personalities that cats and dogs have are stereotypes set by the media. it's not as one sided as some of those extreme sjw's like to think.

i never said men werent stereotyped in media i was just answering toynerd's question lol

alright

basically the media just sucks

Quote: parisruelz12

Quote: C1nder

Quote: parisruelz12

so men aren't stereotyped as either stupid, womanizing or a football playing jerk?


you can't say that the media just stereotypes one thing. thats not how it works. everything has a stereotype. all of the races men, women, children. hell, even the personalities that cats and dogs have are stereotypes set by the media. it's not as one sided as some of those extreme sjw's like to think.

i never said men werent stereotyped in media i was just answering toynerd's question lol

alright

i should've quoted their message so my post had more context, sorry

Quote: ThroneOfMalefor

Quote: C1nder

need i mention harmfully demeaning stereotypes media has for women

Both sides are stereotyped pretty heavily.
Men are expected to wolf down the Earth to find the perfect maiden by age 20, listen to heavy metal, ride motorcycles, be fat/work out all the same, talk about women 24/7... It really goes both ways.

EDIT: Thanks paris, all men LOVE football.

This. Men are taught from a very early age that their worth comes from their money. Men are taught to be providers, and to be providers for their future wife they are taught to strive for nice cars, nice houses, nice clothes, nice jobs, nice everything. Society holds men to the standard of always bettering themselves, always improving, getting as close as they can to perfection but we're now telling women that they can be happy by making no progress, loving themselves as they currently are, and never making any productive changes to their lives. Society tells women that they're perfect at any size, but if you're a short guy you're "not a real man". If a man doesn't want to get married he's selfish, he's a player. If a woman doesn't want to get married she's independent, empowering. If you're a male sexual assault victim you're probably lying or you should've liked it because you're a guy, but if you're a woman you're telling nothing but the truth and everyone feels bad for you. Also good luck getting custody of your future child if you're a man, because being a woman makes that so much easier. Also all of that nice stuff I mentioned earlier than you're supposed to have? You sure better give half to your wife if you ever divorce. I mean come on, she bared your children that she stays at home on maternity leave with. Oh, you tried to get paternity leave so you could be with your children, but your boss laughed in your face? That's too bad. Where is the activist group for men to not feel pressure to be 6'5", tan, buff, have good hair, and wealthy? Where is the activist group supporting single fathers, or men who fathered a child with someone but get no say in what happens to it?

Feminism is bull****, sorry not sorry. If you're a woman and you live in a first world country you are not oppressed. If you had a hard life I'm sorry, that really does suck and I wish you nothing but the best from here on out. But you did not have that hard life because you were oppressed for being a woman.

Quote: Bumblebunnii

If a man doesn't want to get married he's selfish, he's a player. If a woman doesn't want to get married she's independent, empowering.

On the flip side, if you're a guy and you have several sexual partners you're a stud, but if you're a woman and have several sexual partners you're a slut.

It's ****ty on both ends.

Oh I agree that it's bad on both sides, but like, it doesn't mean there's oppression. Are both women and men oppressed now because everyone is ****?

I really don't understand why some people claim they have equal rights in mind but at the same time adamantly deny that men also face unfair issues and expectations in society. If someone labels themselves as a feminist then they really should fight against all the unjust double standards that people have, not just ones about women.

Quote: Bumblebunnii

Oh I agree that it's bad on both sides, but like, it doesn't mean there's oppression. Are both women and men oppressed now because everyone is ****?

Oppression may not be the proper word in this particular case.

As for if there is any actual oppression in first world countries such as this one is a subject I'm not well versed in. I'm still not sure about the existence of a wage gap let alone being able to articulate on it outside of "if it's a thing it shouldn't be".

Feminists do not try to fight for men's rights. Feminists are more concerned with making "realistic" Barbies and videogame characters than to worry about petty nonsensical things like male abuse victims. Feminism is the first group to call for more female CEO's and big name positions, but doesn't care about the more unsavory male dominated careers like mining or construction. Feminists love feminist women, but if you disagree with them they typically will do everything in their power to discredit you and shut you down. "Oh sweet, you're just too stupid to know you need feminism. Here, drink from this male tears mug and let me tell you about slut shaming".

Also, the wage gap is a myth. So is every other major argument made by feminists for why we need feminism.

I've heard arguments both in the credit that it is and isn't true. It's something I need to look into more.

I honestly try not to get too much into these things. It's been established before that I'm egalitarian and heavily into equality for all and that in whatever field someone isn't equal, just do what you can to fix it.

imo both extreme feminists and people who hate on "those damn sjws" are just as irritating and unnecessary as each other
if you want something to be fixed, posting an angry message online isn't going to change anything

Misandrists are feminists, and you can't say they aren't m8.

Feminist: Believes in equality for women
Misandrist 1: Believes in female superiority, not a feminist
Misandrist 2: Believes that hating men is what women need to be equal to men, definitely a feminist

Misandrists can hate men and be feminists, women can hate non-feminist women and be feminists, radfems can be feminists, terfs can be feminists, racists can be feminists.
Also can everyone stop quoting the definition of feminism to me? That means literally nothing when the members of the organization go against the definition entirely. Just because the actual definition of feminism says that feminism strives for equality of the sexes, that does not mean that the actions and ideologies of those involved have to abide by the definition. Tell me this, if feminism is about equality and isn't damaging to anyone, why are feminists all making damage control videos and telling people that they're misunderstanding what feminism is about? Why should they have to do that if no one is being negatively effected by it?

Name one single right that men have in first world countries that women do not. Name one way that women are held back in society that men aren't. Men lose custody battles more often, they face harsher sentences for the same crimes that women commit, they're circumcised unwillingly at birth, they're scrutinized by false rape statistics, false wage gap statistics. Male rape victims are shamed and doubted, male abuse victims are told to toughen up, male suicide rates are higher than women, men are the victim of more violent crimes.

You don't have to label yourself. Like, not hating women is the default stance here. Nobody labels themselves as anti-rape, or anti-murder. Hi nice to meet you, my name is Bunny, I'm 19 and I'm anti-kicking puppies.
Not hating women and wanting equality for the sexes doesn't necessarily mean you're a feminist, it just means you're not an asshole. The other great perks of identifying as not an asshole: Not racist, not homophobic, not transphobic, not ableist, against kicking puppies, etc. That's a lot easier to say than I'm anti-woman hater, anti-homophobic, anti-transphobic, anti-murder, anti-racism, anti-puppy kicking, anti-ableist, anti-sharkaphobe.

tbh the most that needs to be changed. imo, are just some people's stupid mindsets.

Feminism is simply a dated concept.

People love to throw around the "it was never about female empowerment, only equal rights" shtick, but if you believe that, answer me this - why is it called "feminism"? Why does this term specifically focus on the feminine side of the human race, if it's about men and women equally?

Because there is a term for someone who believes in the principle of equal rights for people, regardless of their sex, gender, race, age, etc. It's called egalitarianism.

The simple fact is that, feminism was about women, no matter how you slice it. Back in the 50's and 60's and all of these times in the past, women were legitimately in a tough spot. Couldn't get jobs, and if they were able to, it was just housecleaning and child minding. They were largely viewed as objects for men to play with in bed. And they were there to look after the man's child (who was often hoped to be a boy, so he could carry on his father's legacy/family business/etc).

Women NEEDED empowerment back then. They had NOTHING to show for the strength they believed they had, because society was structured in a way that didn't allow them to demonstrate it.

That's where feminism came in. It was about empowering women with the end goal that women could attain equal rights by asserting their power, proving that they were as strong as and had as much worth as men. At the time, it was the only way to get equal rights.

Nowadays, for the most part, women do have equal rights. Most men do sincerely believe women are strong, if not stronger than men in some cases. While there are injustices, they are not like before where literally no woman could get a job or was destined to be a sex slave for a man who just so happened to treat the woman with gifts and a place to stay. Yes, sexist employers exist. Strong and empowering female characters in fiction are sometimes broken down to a sexy, fanservice wimp for the gratification of the men watching the show/playing the game/etc. But these aren't the norm anymore.

That's why feminism just isn't really needed anymore, at least not to the extent people pretend. Nowadays, if a woman is being unfairly denied a job, it's more of an individual case and not the norm. Action should be taken, but overall female empowerment (i.e feminism) is not needed, as the strength of women overall, has been proven. Maybe in these cases, the individual just needs empowerment and assistance.

TL;DR - Saying feminism "is not about empowerment, only equal rights between the sexes", is being completely ignorant of what was required for women to progress to the stage they are at now.

Quote: TTD

I'll copy what I posted on a previous topic because I think that it's important people understand the difference. Misandrists are constantly confused with feminists, the main reason for this is that a lot of misandrists like to label themselves as feminists even though it goes completely against what feminism stands for.

Feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes, it is in no way related to the superiority of women, it is simply the idea of both sexes being equal.

Misandry is the dislike of men thus is all about the superiority of women and not related to feminism in the slightest. The two couldn't be more different.

Quote: Bumblebunnii

Feminists do not try to fight for men's rights.

Well.

this site doesnt really seem like the best example

yeah this site seems kinda insane
help its getting worse

I get bullied by men who think I'm not manly enough and antagonising me and making me feel bad about myself doesn't help they can all go to heck.

It's much easier and less controversial just to hate humanity in general but people will call you Edgelord or Edge the hedgy.

I think people who hate the new Ghostbusters probably hate the original Ghostbusters too except for Walter Peck.

Quote: StevemacQ

I think people who hate the new Ghostbusters probably hate the original Ghostbusters too except for Walter Peck.

A huge reason the new Ghostbusters got **** on is because people were mad that they were rebooting one of their childhood favorites. I'd argue that most people who hate the new film hate it because they love the original too much.

^ Most of those are opinions and not facts.

I've decided not to label myself after feminism getting pretty radical, at least when I use to label myself as one. I've noticed it dying down as the focus has shifted towards minority groups, but the fact still stands that feminism has veered in a direction that sounds like the opposite of their goal.

I don't believe in demeaning men in order to level them to women. We should love, not hate. Hell, we shouldn't even blame the media on everything either. It's just culture differences stemmed from religion and trends, which then the media exploits and expands on. The media just reflects society during a time period because that's how they get views.

Like the "topless" deal. Cultures that aren't ashamed of showing off breasts shouldn't be compared to our culture, because we have no idea WHY they're doing that. Maybe they're hot? Maybe they hold them sacred? We don't know.

For example, the whole burka deal. There was a point in time where feminists were actually speaking against the burka since they were to be worn by women and only women. A lot of people thought this was because the men forced this upon them, almost like a dress code so that way the men dont LUST after them, but it was actually a choice MADE by the women who do wear them. It's a religious garment. They can choose if they don't want to wear it.

When it comes to why feminism is called feminism rather than egalitarianism the way I see it is this. The anti-feminists here have been adamant in pointing out the various issues faced by men, and I agree that they are issues that have to be fixed (and hey, I'm a feminist, I also don't hate men!). HOWEVER, take a closer look at these issues. A major one is that to be accepted, men do have to be this ultra-masculine, powerful, strong, emotionless being, or at least that's often the way it seems. When men start to be shamed is when they start acting too much like women. If they're being overly emotional for example, or physically weak, or into traditionally feminine things. Hence why there's always more judgement when men wear skirts than when women wear trousers which is seen as socially acceptable. Issues with paternity leave and it being harder for men to get custody of a child I imagine are largely down to the fact that traditionally it's expected that women are the ones to stay home and look after children whereas men are expected to work and earn all the money (it might also have something to do with the fact that women are the ones to have carried and birthed said children and so theoretically have a stronger bond with them? But I'm speculating). What I'm getting at is that yes there are a lot of huge issues faced by men but a lot of them stem from the fact that people have a problem with women and femininity. Masculinity is seen as good and something to strive towards whereas femininity (often associated with women) is seen as bad and weak so I guess if people started, you know, liking women and feminine qualities and didn't see them as something bad then a lot of the problems faced by men would be eradicated? And the same goes for male victims of abuse, being a victim is seen as weak hence why some men are ridiculed (very wrongly for it). Just thought I'd add that I heard recently that the first home for the protection of trafficked men has been opened in Britain which is really good so yeah. This is just my thoughts on the matter.

Masculinity certainly isn't revered in our society right now at all. Masculine guys are seen as aggressive, and abusive. You see a strong, conventionally masculine male and people want to call him a rapist, a spouse abuser, dangerous.
I have a friend who we'll call D, he's tall, buff, bearded, conventionally "manly". I'm fairly small so he towers over me a great bit. On two different occasions when I have been with D and he has spoken to me in his deep voice that is conventionally "manly", women have pulled me aside to ask if I'm okay. To make sure I don't need protection from this man that I am with willingly.
We tell guys it's okay to have feminine attributes, but that about the masculine guys?

Dudebros out there who like being masculine, your masculinity isn't toxic. It's not dangerous, or fragile. And it certainly isn't anything to be afraid of.

So the argument that we need feminism because society has an issue with feminine traits just doesn't make any sense. Society has an issue with feminine and masculine traits because society is ****. Everyone is ****. Everything is ****. You don't need a label to see that.

Quote: Bumblebunnii

We tell guys it's okay to have feminine attributes, but that about the masculine guys?

Men are raised with the idea that feminine attributes and displays of emotion are a sign of weakness and that you aren't a real man. That you are incapable of surviving in the real world or having a partner or simply functioning. Crying is weakness, and so you are better off bottling those emotions and hiding them away.

Father figures can often not display any affection towards their children (specifically sons) because at this point it's awkward and uncomfortable for both ends because they were both raised and taught that it's sissy and weak.

The masculine image you describe is what men grow up being told to replicate, not shy away from.

Funny. In my area, both genders were taught that crying is okay for everyone. But crying over nothing meant being told to toughen up, because crying over petty little insignificant **** is not going to help anyone in life, because life is a *****. Guys in particular were often told (both by adults and guys of similar ages) that real men cry and aren't afraid of showing it, because sadness is a powerful emotion (see: Inside Out ;P).

Quote: CAV

Quote: StevemacQ

I think people who hate the new Ghostbusters probably hate the original Ghostbusters too except for Walter Peck.

A huge reason the new Ghostbusters got **** on is because people were mad that they were rebooting one of their childhood favorites. I'd argue that most people who hate the new film hate it because they love the original too much.

Not sure about that. I mean the assholes disapproving an all-female cast for Ghostbusters is exactly how Walter Peck dissaproves the Ghostbusters team. I don't sympathise with these 30-to-40-something-year-old fans and I never will. Their behavior proves that they deserve the very worst.

Quote: StevemacQ

Quote: CAV

Quote: StevemacQ

I think people who hate the new Ghostbusters probably hate the original Ghostbusters too except for Walter Peck.

A huge reason the new Ghostbusters got **** on is because people were mad that they were rebooting one of their childhood favorites. I'd argue that most people who hate the new film hate it because they love the original too much.

Not sure about that. I mean the assholes disapproving an all-female cast for Ghostbusters is exactly how Walter Peck dissaproves the Ghostbusters team. I don't sympathise with these 30-to-40-something-year-old fans and I never will. Their behavior proves that they deserve the very worst.

That's rather harsh and condemnatory considering how it's just a movie series. I know people are assholes, but I agree with CAV, though on a lesser scale and less inflamitory, people were raging on the PPG and Teen Titans reboot. People dislike change, especially considering Ghostbusters was such a major part of some people's childhood.

Feminists are gettin' crazy 'round here. No matter what I say, they call me a pig! Well, I tell them that the only thing about me that's pig is what I eat!

People didn't like the new Ghostbusters movie because it was trash.
Reboots hardly ever go well, and especially when you don't even do the original movie justice. The reboot was full of overly cheesy jokes and din't have any sort of serious tone to it like the original did.

Not everything involving women that is disliked is an attack on women. Also, if everyone is so obsessed with women in movies...Give them original movies. Not movies originally done by men, kind of a cop out if you ask me. n_n

Quote: Bumblebunnii

People didn't like the new Ghostbusters movie because it was trash.
Reboots hardly ever go well, and especially when you don't even do the original movie justice. The reboot was full of overly cheesy jokes and din't have any sort of serious tone to it like the original did.

Not everything involving women that is disliked is an attack on women. Also, if everyone is so obsessed with women in movies...Give them original movies. Not movies originally done by men, kind of a cop out if you ask me. n_n

but for real though i agree with this so much.

Okay what bothers me the most about the whole Ghostbusters thing is that the only reason we got this movie in the first place is because of the original fanbase. because the original Ghostbusters did so well, they were willing to make this movie because they knew it would atleast garner some attention by the OG fanbase. Well... That is until they absolutely trashed the original fanbase, and implied that if they don't like the movie or the trailers that they're all misogynistic scum.

(I'm dumb and don't know how to hyperlink)
Paul Fieg: Why Men Aren't Funny http://www.hollywoodreporter.c...en-arent-449025
"Since it was announced, people (if men actually count as people)..." http://gawker.com/ghostbusters...s-ch-1783548259
"...vile attacks from some of the angriest misogynists on the internet...And while many movie fans, hysterical men’s rights activists, and YouTube commenters..." https://www.buzzfeed.com/katea...4m3Y#.iuxnjV4x1
There's plenty of stuff on the Huff Post too, but that's not too hard to find for yourself.

Also I just want to mention that Buzzfeed claims that the Ghostbusters trailer has "millions" of downvotes. Right now it has 969,000. That's not even one million Buzzfeed, much less millions
But wh.. What is this..? Star Wars: The Force Awakens, the movie with a female lead, stands at only 19k dislikes. What? How could that be??? People hate women!
Maybe.. Just maybe... People like good movies with women, and good movies with men... But don't like
Bad movies
With women
Or
Bad movies
With men
...
Just maybe

Quote: Bumblebunnii

People didn't like the new Ghostbusters movie because it was trash.
Reboots hardly ever go well, and especially when you don't even do the original movie justice. The reboot was full of overly cheesy jokes and din't have any sort of serious tone to it like the original did.

Not everything involving women that is disliked is an attack on women. Also, if everyone is so obsessed with women in movies...Give them original movies. Not movies originally done by men, kind of a cop out if you ask me. n_n

I mean reviews are generally positive to mixed, so it doesn't seem too trash necessarily.

And you're absolutely right in that not every dislike on films like this is because of a hatred towards women.
But at the same time there was a portion; a small, loud and vocal portion; that did **** on the film from the get go at least partly because the cast was going to be women rather than just new male comedians like the original. Just like how it's bad for SJWs and feminists to turn a blind eye to actual criticism of the movie, it's bad for those who dislike the movie to turn a blind eye to how there were in fact bad eggs in the bunch that didn't help the argument.

Ghostbusters drama was a ****show all around and it's probably going to be a few years before people calm down and look at the film objectively.

Quote: CAV

Quote: Bumblebunnii

People didn't like the new Ghostbusters movie because it was trash.
Reboots hardly ever go well, and especially when you don't even do the original movie justice. The reboot was full of overly cheesy jokes and din't have any sort of serious tone to it like the original did.

Not everything involving women that is disliked is an attack on women. Also, if everyone is so obsessed with women in movies...Give them original movies. Not movies originally done by men, kind of a cop out if you ask me. n_n

I mean reviews are generally positive to mixed, so it doesn't seem too trash necessarily.

And you're absolutely right in that not every dislike on films like this is because of a hatred towards women.
But at the same time there was a portion; a small, loud and vocal portion; that did **** on the film from the get go at least partly because the cast was going to be women rather than just new male comedians like the original. Just like how it's bad for SJWs and feminists to turn a blind eye to actual criticism of the movie, it's bad for those who dislike the movie to turn a blind eye to how there were in fact bad eggs in the bunch that didn't help the argument.

Ghostbusters drama was a ****show all around and it's probably going to be a few years before people calm down and look at the film objectively.

Thank you.